No thats not enough. You have every right to be upset with the TWA seniority or the loss of furlough pay or even that John won by a mere 4 or 5 votes. But thats all in the past. Those are battles lost or in some cases for the courts to decide. I don't think that every thing is rosey and that things at AA and APFA don't need some improvement. But if we want (thats you and me) things to get better we have to start somewhere and I think we would be better off dropping the APFA bashing and start working together. Look at it this way 50% of the membership doesn't seem to care one way or another who our president is. We have got to start somewhere in bringing the membership together. Do you have any suggestions?
Words For Thought To My Peers
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N905TW
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MiAAmi Says:
You can back your buddie up all you want but fact is that there is no "shifting" of flying from AA to AE right now. Rose colored glasses are not needed to see this.
With all due respect.... exactly what planes are currently flying routes such as STL-LGA, STL-EWR, STL-PHL, STL-MSY, STL-BOS, STL-JAX, etc?
Last I checked, it wasn't a mainline jet at the gate... so yes, eAAgle HAS replaced mainline.... this seems rather black and white.
Wasn't too long ago there were L1011s on those routes.... and now what ?
You can back your buddie up all you want but fact is that there is no "shifting" of flying from AA to AE right now. Rose colored glasses are not needed to see this.
With all due respect.... exactly what planes are currently flying routes such as STL-LGA, STL-EWR, STL-PHL, STL-MSY, STL-BOS, STL-JAX, etc?
Last I checked, it wasn't a mainline jet at the gate... so yes, eAAgle HAS replaced mainline.... this seems rather black and white.
Wasn't too long ago there were L1011s on those routes.... and now what ?
MiAAmi said:
I am not sure I would call jimntx my "buddie" as we have never met. But do not let facts get in the way of your arguement.
AE is a big threat to the jobs of both junior and furloughed AA F/A. Come to think of it, John Ward and his inability to negotiate or even understand the importance of scope provisions is a bigger threat, but I was trying to practice what you preach and avoid the obvious.
jimntx
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Oh, how about, you first! Miaami when you have something to offer beside telling TW people to shut up and move on with their lives or quit; and, because I don't think that JW is the greatest thing since sliced bread, telling me that I am being divisive, then we'll talk about dialogue.MiAAmi said:
If anyone has been divisive, it's you. Your condescending attitude and dismissive tone toward anyone who doesn't think or vote as you do has not been successful in winning friends and influencing people.
So, why don't you try to come up with some constructive suggestions on ways to get out of this mess? And, remember...
You have already used "You people need to get over yourselves" and "I refuse to give up one single digit of my seniority for any reason" and "You JUNIOR people need to be quiet and listen to people who have been around for awhile."
Jimntx wrote that there is "continues to be a shift of flying from AA to AE". The cuts that were made at STL were made already. Although AE is expanding there is no continued shift in flying. If that was true we would be seeing additional furloughs.N905TW said:
TransWorldONE
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Hmm, Lets see I'm still a member. I would also like to hear your ideas on bringing us "all together" Our opinions don't seem to matter, lets hear yours.MiAAmi said:
MiAAmi, let's try and make this abundantly clear.
If an AA route is cut, and then later restored as AE, that is a shift from AA to AE. See? It starts as AA, and ends as AE. That's a shift. The fact that the furloughs occurred in the recent past doesn't make them any less real.
If an AA route is cut, and then later restored as AE, that is a shift from AA to AE. See? It starts as AA, and ends as AE. That's a shift. The fact that the furloughs occurred in the recent past doesn't make them any less real.
jimntx
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Oh, you mean that just because there hasn't been an AA flight given to AE within the last 24 hours or the last month that means it's over forever. Well, I prefer to wait and see what happens to some of the routes when the 70-seaters are delivered to AE.MiAAmi said:
And mweiss is right. There is a great deal of flying that was cancelled on mainline over the past 3 years, then when the route was brought back it was AE or, even worse for AA, AX.
As far as your suggestion, we can all suggest unlimited recall. What is needed is a clue that you could give to JW on how to bring that about, and a way to convince him to even consider it. I was told by my former base chair, who was very much a JW supporter, that JW and Jane Allen had a discussion about that and were in complete agreement that 5 years was to stand because that gave them both a better opportunity to rid themselves of some or all of the former TWA f/a's.
You justified no furlough pay as a way to maintain pay levels. Not true, APFA got nothing for that concession because the company wasn't asking for it, so they offered nothing in return. The RPA was not the result of a negotiation. It was the result of JW refusing to prepare in advance for what we all knew was coming, and his desire to be the company's lap dog. But, we'll let that stand.
OK. You've suggested unlimited recall rights. What are you as a working flight attendant willing to give up to bring that about? You have said time and again that AA will not give anything for nothing; and you have indicated your unwillingness to give further. I'm assuming you have a quid pro quo to offer the company. Don't ask me, I have nothing to give. I'm furloughed.
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I'm listening..that sounds like a good start...But I'd like to hear your ideas on how we unify a devided union that both thinks each other is the enemy.MiAAmi said:
That huge army of mean "old" twa flight attendants who are gonna wash over us like a wave and take over, lol and those poor AA'ers who don't want to move down one number in seniority or give up anything?
I'd love to be able to join hands and sing "we are the world" with my nAAtive brothers and sisters, lol.
I agree that the expansion of AE is to be of concern to all of us. I wasn't at the table when they discussed the cuts so I can't argue what was offered or not. You can bet that no matter how AA does in the next year or so that APFA will not be caught with out a battle plan should AA come back to us like they are at US Airways. The satellite base idea that came with TW seems to be working perfectly at SAN and rumor has it that SJU will not be far behind. You are right about not willing to take anymore of a paycut to secure furlough pay, I don't think that will gel with the membership at all. I think we should continue to look at low to no-cost items that can be presented to the company as a "throw the f/a's a bone" idea that can be seen as moral boosting. (ie trading of OE's ...unlimited OE's etc.). Meanwhile we should be setting up a priority list of the most important items that need to be recovered from our old contract.
jimntx
Veteran
Well, I guess then we just have to go with what JW told us--that the company "refused to negotiate" that he had no choice except to pick one of the offered packages. The problem with that is that any real union person can tell you there is always a choice. The phrase is "Well, Don, see you in bankruptcy court" followed by having the cojones to get up from the table and walk out. The negotiations would then have started. AA no more wanted to give up control to the bankruptcy judge than they wanted to retain the TWA flight attendants.MiAAmi said:
Oh, you mean like APFA was prepared for the RPA "negotiations?" Or, do you mean how APFA wrestled AA to the mat and got a new "industry-leading contract" after having worked without a contract for years? An industry-leading contract that had 1970's work rules? I wouldn't bet a dime on APFA being prepared because your hero JW doesn't believe he has to listen to anyone. The next openers are not until 2008, and the thing I will bet on is that AA won't be willing to even discuss changes until then. And, if APFA shows it's usual negotiating acumen it will be another 6 years before we even have a TA. At that rate, I'll be almost 70 before a new contract is even presented for a vote.MiAAmi said:
Typical nAAtive response. The first rule of negotiation is that I am not willing to give up anything personally for the good of my fellow flight attendants. That's how you got B scale.MiAAmi said:
Well, actually some of us on another bb have already been trying that and discussing possible contract enhancements. So far, the only input from senior nAAtives has been "Oh no, I'm not giving that up." or "Oh, that will never work."MiAAmi said:
