Why is it that the negotiations are "top secret", and can the MEC cut a deal without the pilots voting on this one?
RJ 900's for PSA-- REJECTED!
- Thread starter flycrazy77
- Start date
Sure they can, they have done it before...
aquagreen73s
Veteran
- Aug 22, 2005
- 1,979
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The MECs, like ALPA National, are the legal representatives of a pilot group. They are presumed to act for the benefit of the pilots, with the membership's best interests, even though we know that is a completely unrealistic assumption. But think of it another way - courts don't want to deal with labor issues and managements will stop at nothing to get the best deal. Therefore, the presumption is quite convenient for all concerned, even the national union, because actions can be taken without the members' themselves having a voice. Problems can just sort of go away, and they do just sort of evaporate these days.
ItsJustAJob
Advanced
- Oct 31, 2003
- 117
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Dorf
I was trying to figure out a way to include the MDA guys in my post as well. I figured the "at least" part was a way to signify those of us J4J at PSA. I knew someone else would pony up and include the MDA guys. It will be interesting when we get back.....as long as we all haven't reached retirement age by then.
Bluestreak
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- May 20, 2003
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It sucks that negotiations are top secret, but that's how things have to be. Imagine if our negotiating team told the pilot group, "Here's what we asking for and here's what we are willing to settle for..." If they say too much they will give up our position and the company will be able to take advantage of us. They can't even give out limited details because that will stir up too much web chatter. If the MEC put out an annoucement stating our intial offer to the company you can be sure that within an hour ten different PSA pilots (or management pretending to be pilots) will be on the message boards (flightinfo, Local 61, and USAviation) giving 100 arguments on why the first offer is asking too much. Pretty soon there will be a huge public debate swirling for all management to read. They will be able to get a pretty accurate view of how strong our negotiating position is just be reading the Local 61 webpage. Imagine if you were on a team of 500 people trying to purchase a used car and you let the salesman listen in while your team discusses what it is willing to pay.
You have to trust our negotiating team. They did a ton of research on payrates and went into this fight armed to the teeth. I don't think they are willing to settle for anything less than Horizon CRJ-700 plus 25%, or Mainline EMB-190, or JetBlue EMB-190, or some combination. Duane Woerth has told our MEC on several occasions not to settle for anything less than industry leading rates. Our MEC has been in contact with all other US Airways ALPA carriers and all have agreed not to undercut us. US Airways is one of the most profitable airlines in the country. In the second quarter of 2006 Express East posted more profit than mainline west and almost as much as profit as mainline east. PSA is the most profitable arm of express and we have the best performance numbers. They will either pay us a decent rate to fly these 900s or else they can stick them up their...
As far as a pilot vote -- this will go out to a pilot vote. After the J4J debacle the MEC passed a resolution stating that all major votes at PSA must go out for a pilot ratification vote. Also, I know Jeff Clark and James Mckey (the CLT reps) would not let this be passed at the MEC level. Because charlotte has more pilots than DAY and TYS combined Clark and Mckey win a roll call vote by default. This union does what the CLT reps want it to do. Clark and Mckey's roll call power is so large that they could have the MEC chairman and/or negotiating committe recalled at any time if it so pleased them. Did you know that Clark bought a $40,000 truck the day we voted down the first 900 offer? He needs a wheelbarrow to carry his giant brass balls.
Here's some more info I picked up today. You can read the tea leaves yourself. One of PSA's brillant human resource people let it be known that PSA is planning on hiring a ton of new pilots over the next several months. Here's some news from a different source -- the training department is ramping back up. They are going to be hiring more instructors very soon. And, CRJ-900 manuals have been floating around in Dayton Headquarters for the past month.
To me it looks like the 900s were going to come here no matter what. The "take it or leave it" deal was management's opening shot in the long negotiating process. I am glad our pilot's weren't stupid enough to fall for it.
flyin4peanuts
Member
- Aug 7, 2006
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Hey again Bluestreak,
I really hope you are accurate in your assumptions about PSA and the current 900 situation! It sounds like you have aquired hard facts which will benefit PSA in the end. I am very close with many in the training department and am hoping they hire another ground instructor or two or three VERY SOON....they are being outrageously overworked and are being pushed to the limit. Training upwards of two crews a day is absolutely ridiculous and utterly inefficient. WE are in desperate need of another GI.
Another valid point: if management knew the RJ-900s were on their way for sure (which I don't know is true or not), the training department should be preparing accordingly. Why hasn't "this hiring process" occurred yet?
Other than that, I am pleased with the progress the company has made with management in the pursuit of the CRJ-900s. I think both parties are acting in the best interest of the company and this pilot group. PSA needs to begin preparing for this onrush of hiring immediately. Please update us if any other hiring information becomes available! Until then, take care Bluestreak and always fly safe
Furloughedagain
Senior
Mike R.'s attitude towards the J4J pilots and that program is sophomoric and his anger misplaced.
Were it not for the J4J program PSA would be a distant memory right now. It is utterly disturbing to see such overwhelming joy about the addition of a 90-seat platform before you even know the payrates!!!
Shiney-jet-syndrome.
Were it not for the J4J program PSA would be a distant memory right now. It is utterly disturbing to see such overwhelming joy about the addition of a 90-seat platform before you even know the payrates!!!
Shiney-jet-syndrome.
Because PSA has a reactionary management team vs a proactive management team.
flyingcat
Veteran
- Oct 10, 2005
- 658
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"Industry leading" oh yeah that will work well since it was such a winner last time. If you are expecting industry leading rates then those CR9's will never go to PSA. They would rather see it at Mesa than have to pay throught the nose. The truth hurts, but no pilot at USAirways or express will ever get industry leading pay and the sooner all of us accept that we aill all be able to sleep a little better.
P.S. comparing the CRJ 900 to the EMB 190 is like comparing a B1900 with a 757. :blink:
gabby
Senior
- Jul 24, 2006
- 306
- 48
A 757 only seats 19 people?
Seats for seats the CRJ and ERJ are the same airplane.
Looks different but does the same EXACT job!
flyingcat
Veteran
- Oct 10, 2005
- 658
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A 757 only seats 19 people?
Seats for seats the CRJ and ERJ are the same airplane.
Looks different but does the same EXACT job!
the EMB 190 can carry more people and its does that is why it is under mainline. The CRJ 900 carries less passengers than the 190. So to compare both of them and say they should be equal in pay. :blink:
CRJ900 86 seats
E-190 11-first class 88 coach = 99 total seats
The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements with ALPA will be modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360 aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at Express carriers.
CRJ900–Bombardier’s newest and largest version of the immensely successful CRJ family of regional jets drew its first sale in some two years in late January, when Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group agreed on a still-undefined mix of 20 CRJ700s/CRJ900s for its America West Express network. By early last month Mesa had taken 15 of the 86-seat airplanes claimed in earlier orders, but remained the only customer for a program Bombardier executives once advertised as a solid bridge between existing 70-seat RJs and the emerging class of narrowbodies poised to compete for the bottom of the mainline market. Still, nearly four years after the program’s launch at the 2000 Farnborough Air Show, the firm order tally showed just 25 airplanes, leaving many wondering whether the “sweet spot†about which they talked had turned sour before its time.
Introduced on the strength of a launch order for 10 airplanes from leasing giant GECAS, the CRJ900 drew its first airline customer in March 2001, when Mesa signed a letter of intent that included a firm order for 20 of the 86-seat jets and an option for another 20. Once its own prospects for placing the airplanes disintegrated, however, GECAS canceled its order. Mesa subsequently converted firm orders for five CRJ700s to a follow-on order for five CRJ900s, bringing the program total to 25.
Mesa placed the first aircraft–dressed in America West Express livery and configured in a two-class, 80-seat cabin layout– into service on a route between Los Angeles and Phoenix late last April. A year later, the Phoenix-based airline remains one of the last major carriers in the U.S. whose regional affiliates enjoy unfettered access to regional jets certified to carry more than 70 passengers. Despite widespread relaxation of limits on 50- and 70-seat jets at regional affiliates, the manufacturers’ early projections of more lenient capacity restrictions have yet to materialize, a fact that remains perhaps the CRJ900’s biggest obstacle.
Such constraints again revealed their disruptive potential last July, when union pressure compelled US Airways to convert a firm order for 25 Bombardier CRJ705s to positions for 70-seat CRJ700s. Scheduled originally for first delivery to wholly owned US Airways subsidiary PSA Airlines early this year, the CRJ705–a planned 75-seat, 82,500-pound mtow version of the CRJ900–exceeds the 75,000-pound mtow, 70-seat limits imposed on US Airways regional affiliates by the mainline pilots’ union scope clause. Although it agreed to an exemption for the Embraer 170 and 175, ALPA’s US Airways division refused to grant further concessions for the Bombardier jet.
More recently, Air Canada told representatives from its mainline pilot union that it might replace half a proposed order for 30 CRJ705s with 15 Embraer 170s or 175s. In December Air Canada split a commitment for 90 airplanes between the two manufacturers, but ongoing negotiations over regional-mainline flying rights led the bankrupt airline to reconsider the planned fleet mix to place the Embraer jets with the mainline. It would then convert the remaining CRJ705 positions to an order for 15 CRJ700s, all of which it would assign to wholly owned regional subsidiary Air Canada Jazz.
Meanwhile, in Europe, where scope clauses present virtually none of the market constraints they do in the U.S., the CRJ900 has faced an even tougher sell, drawing just a single firm order from France’s Brit Air for four airplanes, only to see it canceled a few months later.
Of course, when Bombardier introduced the CRJ900, no one could have predicted the economic upheaval 9/11 would eventually produce, and the severe interruption in the flow of financing for new airplanes in virtually every seat class. Although its commonality attributes appeal most to regional airlines already flying CRJs, the 86-seat jet might have also filled a role at the lowest end of the single-aisle mainline range, surmised Bombardier. It has failed to deliver on that promise, however, as rival Embraer prepares to fill its first order from the emerging low-fare niche with the larger, 98-seat Embraer 190.
The CRJ900 reached the market some two years before the scheduled first delivery of the 78- to 86-seat Embraer 175, its closest competitor in terms of seating capacity and weight. Embraer promotes the 175’s more spacious cabin and baggage capacity as vital attributes for the longer routes it believes airplanes in that seat class will serve. Nevertheless, a tentative launch order from India’s Jet Airways fizzled last year, leaving Embraer with only a tentative commitment from US Airways to convert some positions for 70-seat 170s to 175s.
In reaction to “competitive pressures,†Bombardier last year assigned more range to the CRJ900 with a so-called paperwork mod that increased its maximum reach to 1,914 nm. Dubbed the CRJ900LR, the variant promises a maximum takeoff weight of 84,500 pounds–4,000 more than the standard CRJ900 and 2,000 pounds higher than the mid-range CRJ900ER. Bombardier v-p Barry McKinnon explained that the company arrived at the extra range by apportioning the higher takeoff weights, thus expanding the airplane’s payload-range envelope without modifying the airframe.
Air Wisconsin is looking a bigger aircraft they have MONEY remember. ALPA mainline will allow maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified
Air Wisconsin is calling a lot of shots now because of their seat on the BOD and vested interest in US. ALPA mainline will allow maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers
And the rest is history
Introduced on the strength of a launch order for 10 airplanes from leasing giant GECAS, the CRJ900 drew its first airline customer in March 2001, when Mesa signed a letter of intent that included a firm order for 20 of the 86-seat jets and an option for another 20. Once its own prospects for placing the airplanes disintegrated, however, GECAS canceled its order. Mesa subsequently converted firm orders for five CRJ700s to a follow-on order for five CRJ900s, bringing the program total to 25.
Mesa placed the first aircraft–dressed in America West Express livery and configured in a two-class, 80-seat cabin layout– into service on a route between Los Angeles and Phoenix late last April. A year later, the Phoenix-based airline remains one of the last major carriers in the U.S. whose regional affiliates enjoy unfettered access to regional jets certified to carry more than 70 passengers. Despite widespread relaxation of limits on 50- and 70-seat jets at regional affiliates, the manufacturers’ early projections of more lenient capacity restrictions have yet to materialize, a fact that remains perhaps the CRJ900’s biggest obstacle.
Such constraints again revealed their disruptive potential last July, when union pressure compelled US Airways to convert a firm order for 25 Bombardier CRJ705s to positions for 70-seat CRJ700s. Scheduled originally for first delivery to wholly owned US Airways subsidiary PSA Airlines early this year, the CRJ705–a planned 75-seat, 82,500-pound mtow version of the CRJ900–exceeds the 75,000-pound mtow, 70-seat limits imposed on US Airways regional affiliates by the mainline pilots’ union scope clause. Although it agreed to an exemption for the Embraer 170 and 175, ALPA’s US Airways division refused to grant further concessions for the Bombardier jet.
More recently, Air Canada told representatives from its mainline pilot union that it might replace half a proposed order for 30 CRJ705s with 15 Embraer 170s or 175s. In December Air Canada split a commitment for 90 airplanes between the two manufacturers, but ongoing negotiations over regional-mainline flying rights led the bankrupt airline to reconsider the planned fleet mix to place the Embraer jets with the mainline. It would then convert the remaining CRJ705 positions to an order for 15 CRJ700s, all of which it would assign to wholly owned regional subsidiary Air Canada Jazz.
Meanwhile, in Europe, where scope clauses present virtually none of the market constraints they do in the U.S., the CRJ900 has faced an even tougher sell, drawing just a single firm order from France’s Brit Air for four airplanes, only to see it canceled a few months later.
Of course, when Bombardier introduced the CRJ900, no one could have predicted the economic upheaval 9/11 would eventually produce, and the severe interruption in the flow of financing for new airplanes in virtually every seat class. Although its commonality attributes appeal most to regional airlines already flying CRJs, the 86-seat jet might have also filled a role at the lowest end of the single-aisle mainline range, surmised Bombardier. It has failed to deliver on that promise, however, as rival Embraer prepares to fill its first order from the emerging low-fare niche with the larger, 98-seat Embraer 190.
The CRJ900 reached the market some two years before the scheduled first delivery of the 78- to 86-seat Embraer 175, its closest competitor in terms of seating capacity and weight. Embraer promotes the 175’s more spacious cabin and baggage capacity as vital attributes for the longer routes it believes airplanes in that seat class will serve. Nevertheless, a tentative launch order from India’s Jet Airways fizzled last year, leaving Embraer with only a tentative commitment from US Airways to convert some positions for 70-seat 170s to 175s.
In reaction to “competitive pressures,†Bombardier last year assigned more range to the CRJ900 with a so-called paperwork mod that increased its maximum reach to 1,914 nm. Dubbed the CRJ900LR, the variant promises a maximum takeoff weight of 84,500 pounds–4,000 more than the standard CRJ900 and 2,000 pounds higher than the mid-range CRJ900ER. Bombardier v-p Barry McKinnon explained that the company arrived at the extra range by apportioning the higher takeoff weights, thus expanding the airplane’s payload-range envelope without modifying the airframe.
Air Wisconsin is looking a bigger aircraft they have MONEY remember. ALPA mainline will allow maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified
Air Wisconsin is calling a lot of shots now because of their seat on the BOD and vested interest in US. ALPA mainline will allow maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified operated in revenue service at any given time at Express Carriers
And the rest is history
FCYTravis
Senior
Baloney. The EMB-190 is NOT an ERJ. The EMB-170-190 platform is a full-sized medium jet with comfortable, mainline-sized 2x2 seating, large overhead bins, a full stand-up cabin (not "stand up if you're a munchkin") and big, eye-level windows. It's a great airplane.
The CRJ-900, on the other hand, is a CRJ-200 stuck in a taffy puller with the attendant abysmal ergonomics and gate-check hassles.
The CR9 sucks, full-stop. The EMB-190 is a 747-400 by comparison.
