Ragged Trousered Philanthropists

[Zom JFK]

Pensions are not handouts. They are earned over decades. There are a lot of government "handouts" I don't agree with. I don't know what kind of assistance/training he got but I'm willing to bet I would probably defend it on the basis that it helped a working man get back to work.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

 I tried to bring this up once before but La La La La "aka" don't have a brain in his head clearly missed my point. 

What the hell are you talking about?
 
I have agreed with your statements on this thread 100%.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I have other things going on. Dosent make what they did to us any less disgusting. To push for it to happen to others is even more disgusting.

We have a bit of a misunderstanding I think. I have actually posted about this same topic before and I will say what I said back then.
 
I am not suggesting you take someone with an active state (or city) pension and freeze it.  That is totally not where I am coming from.
 
What I am suggesting is that new employees should be hired with a retirement benefit that is comparable to "real world" working peers.
 
That is not taking away anything. If the terms of employment are not satisfactory a prospective employee can feel free to turn down the job.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

But yet he took government money when he left AA voluntarily and used it to be retrained, yet he is against government handouts and he took one.

700UW shut the hell up.
 
I never said I was against government assistance. I said I was against making welfare a way of life.
 
Go crawl back in your hole and scheme some more you weasel. 
 

The government funded less than half of my schooling, the rest I payed for out of pocket. That was AFTER working full time for 17 years.
 
I contribute both my skill and to the tax base. Got out of school Friday and had a full time job Monday.
 
Have not heard the end of it since from Tree, Glenn, and Dog. Apparently to them temporary funding for education is the same as laying up on welfare for 20 years. 
 
Libtards have a real double standard when it comes to public assistance. Making it a lifestyle is fine, using it as intended (temporarily and as a path to self sustainment) is an invitation for harassment. 

Thank you for showing up and proving my point.

 

[700UW]

You took a government handout after you chastised others for doing the same.
 
And when you own the board, you can make the rules, looks like I touched a nerve.
 
And you are nothing more than a hypocrite.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

700UW shut the hell up.
 
I never said I was against government assistance. I said I was against making welfare a way of life.
 
Go crawl back in your hole and scheme some more you weasel. 
 
Thank you for showing up and proving my point.

I think the TWU should have paid for your training since they are the ones who agreed to let AA do away with your job.  17 years of paying union dues should have gotten you at least that I think.  You were a tax paying member of society and now with the training you are a tax paying member of society again.  Money well spent by our government I think.  You don't have to explain yourself to anyone on this blog.  We have all been hosed by our union but you got the ultimate hosing by them.  I'm glad to see you are doing well.  The TWU took care of Sam and Debbie didn't they?  They should have done something for the rest of you.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

And you are nothing more than a hypocrite.

And everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie.
 
I will let your post history speak for itself.

 

[700UW]

Talking about yourself again, I see.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
That is not taking away anything. If the terms of employment are not satisfactory a prospective employee can feel free to turn down the job.

The new hires are doing the same work but getting less for it, so yes it is taking away.  This is the exact line of thinking that some A-scalers had towards B-scalers then those same people felt that the B-scalers "owed" them and resented when B-scalers approved contracts that cut years to the top with minimal increases to the base wage. In the end we all lost and instead of being united against concessions from management it became A-scale vs  B-scale

 

[Bob Owens]

This is a excellent post, and all what you say is 100% true. Everyone should contribute more than 6, not only to get the match but to lessen the taxable income, I tried to bring this up once before but La La La La "aka" don't have a brain in his head clearly missed my point. My only thing from your first post is the end amount seems WAY off. I'm a low timer and the majority of the people how have far more time than I do only just started their 401k when we received the match. And that is sad. 

Whats even sadder is that around 6000 TWU members are not putting in enough to get the 5.5% match and are giving money back to the company. They have no way of ever recovering even a fraction of a penny of that money either because AA doesn't even have profit sharing. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
NY suffers from out of control tax rates. Just ask Eric Garner and the Nazi tax enforcers that dare to call themselves peace officers. I find it funny you complain about what American Airlines pays you but not the excessive amount the city of NY rips out of your wallet every day. But then again you gotta fund those public pensions....... right? 

Hard to ask Eric Garner anything because unfortunately he is dead. Of course in your neck of the woods he probably would have been shot or hung. I don't believe the cops intentionally killed Mr Garner, they did use improper techniques at restraining the much larger man who was resisting arrest, (Mr Garner was selling stolen cigarettes, and did not pose an imminent violent threat to society). Yes the officers actions caused his death, and yes actions taken by Mr Garner was a factor in the escalation of the situation that led to his death, the same situation with a younger healthier man probably would not have led to a fatality, even with the improper restraints used. I do believe those officers should be fired as Police Officers due to the fact they used improper restraints that they are specifically trained to not use and caused the death of Mr Garner,  their negligence is compounded by their failure to monitor his condition after he apparently lost consciousness  (they did turn him on his side so he could breathe but they failed to monitor his condition or administer CPR).  
 
Yes I will complain about what AA pays because in real terms AA has cut our pay for no reason other than their insatiable greed. Our productivity has doubled but our compensation has been drastically cut. That is the opposite of the American promise that we grew up with which was to reject Socialism/Communism because with the efficiencies of Capitalism the benefits of increased productivity will result in shorter work weeks and higher living standards. Instead, even as we deliver higher productivity we are getting lower living standards and longer work weeks.
 
Our peers at UPS, FED Ex and even the deep discount Airline Southwest are all much, much better compensated than we are, no they don't have as much OH in house as we do but they never did, even when we made as much or more than them so its a BS argument. In BK the company admitted that outsourcing all OH was not an option for two reasons, there wasnt capacity out there and the savings were not there to get what they wanted. We had more Flight Attendants per airplane and more Fleet Service clerks per airplane but neither of those groups were told they had to accept bottom of the industry pay because of that. 

 

[Kev3188]

What I am suggesting is that new employees should be hired with a retirement benefit that is comparable to "real world" working peers.
 
That is not taking away anything. If the terms of employment are not satisfactory a prospective employee can feel free to turn down the job.

What is being "taken away" in that scenario is the ladder others before them took on the way up.

We need to stop rationalizing reasons for kicking it away once we get to the roof...

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The new hires are doing the same work but getting less for it, so yes it is taking away.  
 

From my experience new hires at AA do far MORE work for less anyway. And they do it for almost a decade. 
 
You can't have something taken away you never had Bob.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Of course in your neck of the woods he probably would have been shot or hung.

Right...... because I live in the south.
 
That comment is pretty telling Bob. Thanks for sharing.
 

I don't believe the cops intentionally killed Mr Garner, they did use improper techniques at restraining the much larger man who was resisting arrest, (Mr Garner was selling stolen cigarettes, and did not pose an imminent violent threat to society). 

Spin it how you like Bob. The fact is NY created an underground market for an everyday item because of outrageous taxes.
 
Over-taxation to feed socialism.
 

Yes I will complain about what AA pays because in real terms AA has cut our pay for no reason other than their insatiable greed. Our productivity has doubled but our compensation has been drastically cut. 

Productivity has been doubled? So you are telling me fleet is loading twice as many bags and the mechanics are doing twice as many repairs? I call B.S.
 
AA may be making profits but it is not because productivity has shot up 100 percent. Get real Bob.
 
At any rate why are you mad at AA? It is their job to make money for their shareholders. Who you should be mad at is the people that negotiated that deal for you. 
 
In business you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate, and TWU has been a piss poor negotiator.
 

That is the opposite of the American promise that we grew up with which was to reject Socialism/Communism because with the efficiencies of Capitalism the benefits of increased productivity will result in shorter work weeks and higher living standards. Instead, even as we deliver higher productivity we are getting lower living standards and longer work weeks.

There is NO American promise Bob. The only promise you are made is to be paid a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. Those other things (higher pay, vacation, health insurance, sick time) are BENEFITS offered by the employer.
 
I find it funny you speak of rejecting socialism and communism while the TWU is funneling money to a party with a socialist agenda. The whole premise the Democrats are running on is "wealth redistribution" (gotta stick it to those wealthy, greedy job creators). How much more communist can you get than that?
 
Part of your so called higher productivity is due in large part to technology. Factories are not more productive because people work harder Bob, they are more productive because they have machines doing the work.
 
Part of the reason your living standard is lower is because America has buried itself in debt to fund those "entitlements" you Democrats love so much. Couple that with stupid people spending 600 dollars on an I-Phone then complaining they are  broke.
 

Our peers at UPS, FED Ex and even the deep discount Airline Southwest are all much, much better compensated than we are, no they don't have as much OH in house as we do but they never did, even when we made as much or more than them so its a BS argument. In BK the company admitted that outsourcing all OH was not an option for two reasons, there wasnt capacity out there and the savings were not there to get what they wanted. We had more Flight Attendants per airplane and more Fleet Service clerks per airplane but neither of those groups were told they had to accept bottom of the industry pay because of that. 

Bob........ again...... fire your negotiator. 
 
Most industries that are skilled labor (which you are) go to a competitor if they are not satisfied with pay and benefits. Part of the price you pay for belonging to such a heavily UNIONized industry is "seniority lock". The trick is to make sure it is worth that price.
 
Is it?

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Productivity has been doubled? So you are telling me fleet is loading twice as many bags and the mechanics are doing twice as many repairs? I call B.S.
 
 

As measured in revenue produced our productivity per employee has more than doubled. IIRC in 2002 AA grossed around $18 billion, in 2014 the new AA grossed around $42 billion
 

AA may be making profits but it is not because productivity has shot up 100 percent. Get real Bob.
 

 
Correct, I didn't say it was, AA would be making profits even if our pay increased at the same rate as productivity, just not as much profits.  That my point, AA could be paying us a fair wage and still be profitable, they just choose not to, they don't even want to give us profit sharing.
 
 

At any rate why are you mad at AA? It is their job to make money for their shareholders. Who you should be mad at is the people that negotiated that deal for you. 
 

Because even in business the exchange should be fair. They expect us to give maximum effort for minimal pay. There is an ideal called ethics and quid pro quo that should be followed.
 

In business you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate, and TWU has been a piss poor negotiator.
 

I think its worse than that, I think its corruption, and AA had a hand in it by essentially bribing out International with padded pensions and executive perks such as A-5 passes for them and their families. Again ethics, one who pays bribes and conspires to defraud someone else  is just as guilty as the one who accepts the bribe. 
 
 
 

I find it funny you speak of rejecting socialism and communism while the TWU is funneling money to a party with a socialist agenda. The whole premise the Democrats are running on is "wealth redistribution" (gotta stick it to those wealthy, greedy job creators). How much more communist can you get than that?
 

Sad. Have you ever even been to any other country? I guess some people simply go through life in a black and white world of absolutes. If you think the Democrats are Socialist, or Communist then you really don't know what either of those words really means, either in a historic or theoretic sense.  Let me ask you something, how many jobs has Parker, or Horton created? 
 
 

Part of your so called higher productivity is due in large part to technology. Factories are not more productive because people work harder Bob, they are more productive because they have machines doing the work.
 

True, but that was even more the case throughout the last century, and for the period from Roosevelt till Reagan people in this country shared in the benefits of increased productivity that was mainly driven by technology, in fact people started working less where the 8 hour day replaced the 12 hour day and the workweek went from 6 to 5 days per week.  Can you think of anything else that was happening on this planet, not just here in the US, but across the world during that same period of time? 
 
 

Part of the reason your living standard is lower is because America has buried itself in debt to fund those "entitlements" you Democrats love so much. Couple that with stupid people spending 600 dollars on an I-Phone then complaining they are  broke.
 

So I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that we have  Military Installations in 40 other countries and spend more on weapons than the rest of the world -combined? Do you know what its called when you have your military in someone else's country? Its called an occupation. You may claim we need all those bases and the expense of maintaining them for "Security" or "to protect our interests" but many of the countries we occupy are "Allies" and those "Allies" don't have military bases in the US. Why are we paying for bases in Australia, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Portugal, Spain and England? If anything you should be pissed off that all those countries have Socialized Medicine, Socialized College Education, Sociailzed minimums as far as Holidays (Vacation) Sick time, maternity and Paternity leave, Labor Laws far more protective than we have and a Welfare system thats far more generous than ours because they aren't paying for all that military .. Plus all workers are allowed to strike and they don't have scams like Chapter 11 Reorganization, those workers have more Freedom and rights than we do!!!
 
I also don't suppose its because of all the tax breaks we give corporations? According to you its because we have too many entitlements. Too many old people that arent forced to eat cat food and too many kids in school?
 
The $600 cell phone isn't stopping them from buying a home or retiring. Its the $500/month they have to pay for medical insurance, and other everyday commodities including the extra taxes they have to pay so corporations don't have to pay their fair share and we can occupy 40 countries across the globe. A while back an old timer brought in his paycheck from the early 60s. He compared the $100/week he was earning then to the $1000 we were making at the time. He said that the house he bought for $20,000 would now cost $200,000 so its really no different, then I pointed out that out of that $100 check he cleared  $85, but out of his $1000 check he was only clearing around $650, so its not the same, its 20% less. Inflation driven tax bracket creep brought us into higher tax brackets forcing us to pay more in taxes so those at the top could pay less. In reality we lost buying power.
 
By the way I'm not a Democrat. In fact the only Party I ever registered as was Republican, back in 1980, and what a mistake that was. Then I grew up. 
 
 

Most industries that are skilled labor (which you are) go to a competitor if they are not satisfied with pay and benefits. Part of the price you pay for belonging to such a heavily UNIONized industry is "seniority lock". The trick is to make sure it is worth that price.
 

 
 
The "Seniority lock" is more due to the fact that this is a 24/7 industry where the work we do is primarily done at night.   If I had to do it all over again I would not be in this industry and have made it clear to my kids to not follow me.