Ragged Trousered Philanthropists

[Bob Owens]

American workers DON'T want defined pension plans and companies aren't offering them as an option for the vast majority of workers.

 

Really? What American worker told you that? I don't ever recall a company even claiming that. I suppose according to you the American worker doesn't want Medical coverage, or Vacation, Holidays and sick time either? 
 
To me the issue is what did it really end up costing us? DB pensions were great for the companies, as a result they were able to pay lower wages, workers got security, those that died young, well they lost, and what was saved funded those who lived longer, but if everyone was focused on earning a wage that would have to be high enough to carry us through retirement we would have demanded much higher wages, then if we died young our heirs would make out instead of our employer or those who lived longer. 
 
They took away our DB pension, and they did so just as the curve was swinging more vertical, we need at the very minimum the same company contribution the pilots are getting (16%), and to match that to replace what we lost and we should accept nothing less. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

A lot more than if he didn't put anything and gave over $100k to the company by not getting the match. 
 
 
I didn't say that they should only put in enough to get the match, thats the bare minimum because otherwise not only arent they saving for retirement, they are giving money back to the company.  
 
 
 
And a 401K match is in no way comparable to a 401K contribution. Unfortunately Little and Videtich were able to get our peers to buy into it despite the fact that both the Flight Attendants (9%) and Pilots (16%) got contributions. If we were to successfully fight for a 16% Contribution and then match that we would end up just as well off as we would be under the pension. So thats what we should shoot for, a rate thats equitable to what the pilots get. Thats only fair, its not like our pensions would be as good as theirs because we make much much less, but we should have the same percentage contribution. 
 
Unfortunately the Association has other plans for us, the IAMNPF ,  make us slaves like the old men we see at US tied to a Union run plan, run by a Union we don't belong to, that sets up so many restrictions that we are stuck here till we die. 

If TWU UNION voters would grow a pair they could have sent TWU packing long ago.  IF TWU burns them again it is their own fault. By letting them get away with past behaviors they have communicated to the leadership that they can walk all over them.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob,
I completely agree with you that 15% is the minimum any worker should have.

Just some perspective - but most of your comments are clearly coming from the perspective of the airline industry and what airline employees have been thru.

the majority of American workers who have been in defined benefit pensions at one time did not have them terminated or frozen.

The reason why most employees do not want a defined benefit pension is because it ties you to one employer. In the case of some state plans, you can move around within the state (such as for school teachers) but in private industry, a defined benefit plan usually locks you into one company. and when you are locked into one company, they have the power to set your salary where they want it because they know that the pension is what will keep you there - not the amount of earning potential you might have elsewhere.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

We gave everything away to save the pensions, workrules, holidays, sick time, vacation, IOD time, Job security, Longevity etc etc.

A fool who will fight for nothing will lose everything. As soon as TWU came back with that trash the membership should have sent them packing.
 

Portability brings power. 

You did not seem to feel that way about seniority.
 
Airlines don't have to compete with each other for talent because they "lock" their employees in with seniority. Few people are willing to start the clock again. If you took that power away from the airlines you may find pay and benefits on the rise. Just an idea.
 

To me the best thing about DC is the fact that it takes so much away from the company as far as bargaining leverage, 

As long as you have a sell out UNION on the grounds it matters not. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

La, you don't need to make words bigger to get your point across. I understand your mentality and I'm not trying to change your mind

I was not trying to be disrespectful. I just wanted to make sure the intent of what I was saying was very clear. Sometimes inferred meanings can get lost in text based communication.
 

If your state has public employees that are doing well, you can move to one where they don't. NJ is doing wonderful things ( in your mindset) to their public employees. So are Wisconsin and Detroit. You can rest easy in the fact that it's over for them also. Their retirement is being stolen just like ours was. Isn't it great?

I hardly think asking public employees to fund part of their own retirement like most of the private sector means they are not going to do well.
 
Nobody stole Detroit's public retirement. Detroit lost their tax base when the automotive plants pulled out of Detroit. The auto makers blame the UNION employees high cost benefit plan. I will leave that for the rest of you to discuss as I have no expertise in the cost of living in Detroit at that time or exactly what benefits were offered.
 
I don't want to see anyone lose their retirement. I just don't want to be forced to fund someone else's while mine lags.
 

Your taxes will remain high and be raised like always. They need that money to feed, house, and provide medical to employees of billion dollar companies like McDonalds and Wal Mart. 

They remain high because socialism has gotten out of control in this country. A Democrat never met a tax or an entitlement he didn't like. And of course it takes the government about 3 times as much (money, employees, time) to accomplish anything as it would a private entity. Meanwhile your funding all that excess out of your own pocket.
 
What you fail to realize about the people working jobs like McDonald's and Wal-Mart is they are perfectly satisfied with their situation. The fact their employer pays them poorly is of little consequence because Uncle Sam is right there ready with a handout.
 
I mean think about it, they work 23 hours a week at some BS job, no worries, no expectations, just minimal effort and a lifetime of "entitlements". 
 
What do you wanna bet that if you cut them off from the "freebies" that situation would change............... overnight?
 
That situation exist because of socialism. That is a fact.
 

Being forced to pay for that should piss you off.

It does indeed.
 

In NY we have to work tons of OT just to put food on the table. Forget about any extras. 

NY suffers from out of control tax rates. Just ask Eric Garner and the Nazi tax enforcers that dare to call themselves peace officers. I find it funny you complain about what American Airlines pays you but not the excessive amount the city of NY rips out of your wallet every day. But then again you gotta fund those public pensions....... right? Meanwhile you can't even fund your OWN retirement. Savvy? 
 
I would also ask you why you chose to make a career out of something that was obviously a dead end for the area you live (pay vs cost). I mean working at American obviously does not meet your needs. I am sure there were a lot more lucrative options.  So again why did you choose to make a career out of a job you knew would never meet your financial needs?
 
I personally would never work for a company in a volatile industry like an airline with a top out I knew would not meet my needs and limited growth potential for my trade skill (if you happen to be skilled labor).

 

[FWAAA]

My father has pension, 401k, and SSI. He probably makes more a year than most people working.

I doubt your father receives SSI, which is social security disability. My guess is that he receives social security old age benefits - the retirement benefit for workers who paid FICA during their working years.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I doubt your father receives SSI, which is social security disability. My guess is that he receives social security old age benefits - the retirement benefit for workers who paid FICA during their working years.

That is correct. Thank you for the information.

 

[bob@las-AA]

 
 
Well thats just it, if you don't put in 5.5% you ARE losing more money. You are giving money back to American, and I agree with the guy who said only a fool wouldn't at least put in enough to get the max match. Where else can they make 100% on their savings? This isn't an extra, and like I said each dollar you put in that gets matched at 100% doesn't cost you a dollar of take home pay because it comes out before taxes, so it may only cost 65 cents on the two dollars that gets added to your savings and the money isn't totally inaccessible either, you can borrow against it if needed and even withdraw. So you pay the penalty but you already made 100% on it. It can be decimated if you are greedy and put it in high risk investments, or you can put it in bonds and earn very little but you already made 100% by getting the match. I live in NY as well. People make choices, and Yes a lot of people live at work to pay the bills, but generally speaking the FSC have nicer fancier cars than mechanics do, life choices, maybe mechanics are putting their money in homes and 401Ks while FSCs are buying fancy cars because they cant afford a house, but maybe if they settled for a slightly less fancy car, or didn't have the latest smart phone, or brown bagged it to work they would have that 5.5% in before tax money, see it more than double and build up over time so they would have enough in the 401K to borrow and get that fancy car a few years later and pay themselves back instead of a bank.  
 
Look I'm not saying its a great deal, but its the only deal, and its foolish not to do whatever it takes to not give that 5.5% back to AA, I think we both agree AA certainly doesn't need or deserve it. 

This is a excellent post, and all what you say is 100% true. Everyone should contribute more than 6, not only to get the match but to lessen the taxable income, I tried to bring this up once before but La La La La "aka" don't have a brain in his head clearly missed my point. My only thing from your first post is the end amount seems WAY off. I'm a low timer and the majority of the people how have far more time than I do only just started their 401k when we received the match. And that is sad. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

the numbers that follow provide highlights of how large of a nest egg one can build.

https://nb.fidelity.com/public/nb/401k/resourceslibrary/articles/Young-and-Planning-to-Retire

About 70 percent of millennials already have 401(k)s or some other retirement savings plan. And they began saving young - at a median age of 22 - the study found. By comparison, baby boomers started saving at the median age of 35.

As a result of their diligence, the median amount millennial households have already saved for retirement in 2014 is $32,000, and their median savings rate is 8 percent of annual household income of about $47,000.

If you plug those numbers into a Bankrate.com 401(k) savings calculator, assuming a 30-year-old millennial earning and saving the median and earning a 7 percent annual rate of return on investment with 3 percent salary increases, this worker will have a tidy $1.1 million nest egg by the time she hangs up her work boots at age 65.

 

[Zom JFK]

I hardly think asking public employees to fund part of their own retirement like most of the private sector means they are not going to do well.
 
In NY they do contribute to their pensions. My brother started with the NYPD in the 80s and he allways had to pay in. it's been that way for awhile now.
 
I don't want to see anyone lose their retirement. I just don't want to be forced to fund someone else's while mine lags.
 
I see your point. But doing to them what was done to us just isn't right no matter how you slice it.
 
They remain high because socialism has gotten out of control in this country. A Democrat never met a tax or an entitlement he didn't like. And of course it takes the government about 3 times as much (money, employees, time) to accomplish anything as it would a private entity. Meanwhile your funding all that excess out of your own pocket.
 
What you fail to realize about the people working jobs like McDonald's and Wal-Mart is they are perfectly satisfied with their situation. The fact their employer pays them poorly is of little consequence because Uncle Sam is right there ready with a handout.
 
I mean think about it, they work 23 hours a week at some BS job, no worries, no expectations, just minimal effort and a lifetime of "entitlements". 
 
What do you wanna bet that if you cut them off from the "freebies" that situation would change............... overnight?
 
That situation exist because of socialism. That is a fact.
 
Those giveaways exist so corporations can get away with paying slave wages. They get us to pay the cost of billionaires workforces. Did you really think those programs are there to help people? On top of that our goods and services are more expensive than ever. 
 
NY suffers from out of control tax rates. Just ask Eric Garner and the Nazi tax enforcers that dare to call themselves peace officers. I find it funny you complain about what American Airlines pays you but not the excessive amount the city of NY rips out of your wallet every day. But then again you gotta fund those public pensions....... right? Meanwhile you can't even fund your OWN retirement. Savvy?
 
With all the things that NYC wastes my tax dollars on public workers pensions are way down on my list of wasteful spending. Theres at least a dozen or more things that should go before we even think about touching their pensions. They love to focus on working people as "the problem", but it just isn't so.
 
I would also ask you why you chose to make a career out of something that was obviously a dead end for the area you live (pay vs cost). I mean working at American obviously does not meet your needs. I am sure there were a lot more lucrative options.  So again why did you choose to make a career out of a job you knew would never meet your financial needs?
 
When I hired on in 1991 the job wase'nt the total dead end it is today. It was not until 2003 that the contract was dismantled. After that I knew the job would never recover.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If you plug those numbers into a Bankrate.com 401(k) savings calculator, assuming a 30-year-old millennial earning and saving the median and earning a 7 percent annual rate of return on investment with 3 percent salary increases, this worker will have a tidy $1.1 million nest egg by the time she hangs up her work boots at age 65.

There is where the system falls apart.
 
Employers are not giving 3 percent salary increases. If you adjust for inflation American Airlines employees are making less than they were 20 years ago.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I don't wish to keep beating a dead horse. I made my feelings about government pensions clear and don't have anything new to add.
 
I do have a couple of questions I wanted to ask though.
 

Those giveaways exist so corporations can get away with paying slave wages. They get us to pay the cost of billionaires workforces. Did you really think those programs are there to help people? On top of that our goods and services are more expensive than ever. 

I don't believe that to be the case. I believe "entitlements" exist as a result of the Democratic Party trying to buy votes. I do not think they are there to help anyone, I believe they are there to create dependence and secure power.
 
Goods and services are more expensive than ever because stupid people go out and buy 600 dollar iPhones to impress people they don't like with stupid crap they don't need. That has nothing to do with cost of labor but the stupidity of the consumer.
 
There is no questions business takes advantage of the low cost of the "entitlement" crowd however, no matter what angle you hit the problem from it always comes down to one conclusion. The situation is made possible by out of control socialism.
 
Again if you stopped the entitlements do you think these people would accept the low wages and no benefits?
 
 

When I hired on in 1991 the job wase'nt the total dead end it is today. It was not until 2003 that the contract was dismantled. After that I knew the job would never recover.

2003? You have had 12 years to come up with a plan B.  You only had 12 years in when the contract was "dismantled".  Again why did you decide to stay in what you knew was a dead end for you for 12 years?
 
What you basically told me is that midway through your career you decided it was a dead end but just kept going anyway. You can understand why I might have questions about that.

 

[Kev3188]

Well thats just it, if you don't put in 5.5% you ARE losing more money. You are giving money back to American, and I agree with the guy who said only a fool wouldn't at least put in enough to get the max match. Where else can they make 100% on their savings? This isn't an extra, and like I said each dollar you put in that gets matched at 100% doesn't cost you a dollar of take home pay because it comes out before taxes, so it may only cost 65 cents on the two dollars that gets added to your savings and the money isn't totally inaccessible either, you can borrow against it if needed and even withdraw. So you pay the penalty but you already made 100% on it. It can be decimated if you are greedy and put it in high risk investments, or you can put it in bonds and earn very little but you already made 100% by getting the match. I live in NY as well. People make choices, and Yes a lot of people live at work to pay the bills, but generally speaking the FSC have nicer fancier cars than mechanics do, life choices, maybe mechanics are putting their money in homes and 401Ks while FSCs are buying fancy cars because they cant afford a house, but maybe if they settled for a slightly less fancy car, or didn't have the latest smart phone, or brown bagged it to work they would have that 5.5% in before tax money, see it more than double and build up over time so they would have enough in the 401K to borrow and get that fancy car a few years later and pay themselves back instead of a bank.  
 
Look I'm not saying its a great deal, but its the only deal, and its foolish not to do whatever it takes to not give that 5.5% back to AA, I think we both agree AA certainly doesn't need or deserve it.

We often hear about the "3 legged-stool" touting a 401k, pension, and Social Security. I contend that there needs to be a 4th, and it needs to be one of real world financial education.

@Bob-- I'm on the ramp, and in my previous station it was the senior FT guys that had "okay" cars while the junior PT people had nice ones. I think that's more of an age thing than a classification issue. They were almost w/o exception younger, and simply had a different set of priorities. It is what it is.
 
 

Companies want nothing more than to put more in your 401k the minute they issue your paycheck and then be able to say that they have no more obligation to you.

Exactly.

The problem is that some unions haven't been able to figure out how to capitalize on that.

the same is true for retirement medical benefits.

I'd like to see organized labor push for Single Payer, but that's a thread for another day.

 

[Zom JFK]

I don't wish to keep beating a dead horse. I made my feelings about government pensions clear and don't have anything new to add.
 
Fair enough. As I said I'm not trying to change your mind. You see the retirement benifits of people who get up and go to work day after day for decades as the problem. I dont. In spite of what the conservtive think tanks and talking heads say. If taken It will not benefit me in any way. I'm no genius but one thing I do know is if working class/middle class people dont stick up for each other who will? Walker? Christie? Boehner? Obama? Clinton? Pelosi? Our politicians are all owned by the same people. 

 
2003? You have had 12 years to come up with a plan B.  You only had 12 years in when the contract was "dismantled".  Again why did you decide to stay in what you knew was a dead end for you for 12 years?
 
What you basically told me is that midway through your career you decided it was a dead end but just kept going anyway. You can understand why I might have questions about that.
 
I have other things going on. Dosent make what they did to us any less disgusting. To push for it to happen to others is even more disgusting.

 

[700UW]

But yet he took government money when he left AA voluntarily and used it to be retrained, yet he is against government handouts and he took one.