Prefunding

[eolesen]

Dave, Buck is right -- your rage appears to be getting in the way of your senses a bit.

I've read your posts for well over a decade, and while I won't try and pretend to be a close friend, you're swinging so much closer to to the edge compared to where I've seen you in other tense situations. You might want to take 24-48 hours off to put your head back on.

You will get the prefunding refund regardless of the YES or NO voting.

That's mostly correct. You get a refund which consists of your contributions plus interest.

What you fail to delineate is how your vote affects whether or not that refund includes the company's contributions and interest.

Call it blood money, bribery, thirty pieces of silver, but despite Bob and other's claims to the contrary, distribution of that second trust to the employees will only happen upon approval of a consensual agreement.

 

[Buck]

You claim to despise the TWU but keep copying and pasting their information.

I hate nothing and nobody.

I don't have problem seeing both sides, I have a problem with someone who claims to hate the TWU, spreading their information for them.

Hate or belittle it is all the same. You are a grown man ignore what you hate or do not like and enjoy your day if you can.

 

[Frank Szabo]

At this point its nuts to settle before the pilots, especially if at the bottom like us. the Pilots are going in, if they dont get a deal then we wont have a job anyway, so a YES vote only guarantees that we wont be able to see an improvement for at least 6 more years.

I say Vote No, wait and see where the pilots land, look at what market rates are for the industry and negotiate, not just give the company everything they want because they filed I believe. after looking at other cases we stand a better than average chance, even in Wall Strteets court, of the Judge not granting managements request, as long as our lawyers make a good arguement. We were willing to move on the few articles in our deal that the company could claim were onerous, the company was simply asking for things that nobody else ever gave up, even in BK, they sought to keep our prefunding match, they want us to sign off on a deal that makes it compulsory to go above and beyond and committ to make AA best in class in return for the worst in class for wages, pension, sick time, Holidays, VacationIf they get a deal with the pilots they will want to settle the rest and exit BK. Until then it really doesnt matter waht the rest of us do.

I've made up my mind re: this vote - many others have also, if not the majority it will take to decide the outcome.

These discussions are beginning to sound like the q/a sessions at the end of a meeting - all the silly questions/arguments come out of the woodwork.

Let the company be punitive if this doesn't pass - it will soon become apparent the real world doesn't care much about the threats of a morally and financially bankrupt airline that gets off on treating its people like dirt.

 

[Strake]

YES! Makes more sense than a "what if" no.

 

[Bob Owens]

YES! Makes more sense than a "what if" no.

There are plenty of what ifs with a yes.
What if AA strikes a deal with the pilots to turn over most domestic flying to Eagle? (They could lay off back to the 70s)
What if AA decides that its cheaper to do 737s elsewhere? They can outsource up to 55% (its 35% above current, which is around 10% plus TAESL if Rolls Royce decides they want out.)
What if they abandon the hub and spoke and do more point to point (7300 departures before they staff)
What if they dont strike a deal with the Pilots and they strike? (The company would still dissapear)
What if mechanics at comepeting airlines continue to get raises(we are stuck with this for at least six years0.
What if AA strikes a deal with retirees to use our Prefunding match to not pursue any claims against the company?

The only thing thats certain with a YES vote is that things will only get worse for us for at least 6 more years, not much else. We will have the lowest wage, the worst 401K match, the most expensive health benefits, the least amount of vacation, no PVs or DATs, the least amount of sick time, and the worst work rules and we have to promise to do whatever we can to make AA "best in class".

 

[Bob Owens]

You will get the prefunding refund regardless of the YES or NO voting.

Elimination of retirement medical prefund is in ALL options.

Feb 1st ASK
Mar 22 1113C
And the LBO

YES/NO it doesn't matter, you will get the refund.

If you mean our contributions Yes I agree. If you are referring to the company match then I disagree. If we agree to give the company control over the monies , such as the little statement about the 1114 committeee then they will use that to try and take it by making a deal with the retirees with our money. How many times have we been burnt in the past by little addendums like that, the Me Too clause of 1995 is one that comes to mind, System Attrition with the SRPs is another. I think a Yes vote would cost us the company match.

 

[TWU informer]

If you mean our contributions Yes I agree. If you are referring to the company match then I disagree. If we agree to give the company control over the monies , such as the little statement about the 1114 committeee then they will use that to try and take it by making a deal with the retirees with our money. How many times have we been burnt in the past by little addendums like that, the Me Too clause of 1995 is one that comes to mind, System Attrition with the SRPs is another. I think a Yes vote would cost us the company match.

I disagree, legally that money is in a Trust in my name. I dont believe that it can be used for another employees medical. And I am willing to engage a Class Action Lawsuit to find out.

 

[strikeforce]

With the LBO, the company and union changed the terms and conditions of the Trust.......which is illegal.

the Trust contributions (both employee & employer) belong to the members, and for the benefit of the members. If I die, are terminated, or quit, I get my contributions and investment earnings.....therefore, the employer's contributions stays in the pot for the benefit of others. I can live with because I'm no longer in the program. But, as long as I'm an "active" participant in the trust and plan.....both contributions are in the trust for my benefit. Period! If the trust is terminated, and it will be terminated in either scenerio, then that money should be distributed back to the employee. The company has no right to that money. There should be a class-action lawsuit, but your union just changed the terms of the plan by agreeing to the LBO. Vote NO!

 

[Buck]

I am going to post or repost a paragraph from the Active Employee Plan. April 6, 1992.

Para 7. If the plan is unilaterally terminated, such as in bankruptcy, TWU members are entitled to return of their own contributions + interest and company contributions + interest, which will be used to secure continuing medical coverage from an outside insurance carrier.

Now if one group does not ratify, what happens to the plan?

 

[Frank Szabo]

I am going to post or repost a paragraph from the Active Employee Plan. April 6, 1992.

Para 7. If the plan is unilaterally terminated, such as in bankruptcy, TWU members are entitled to return of their own contributions + interest and company contributions + interest, which will be used to secure continuing medical coverage from an outside insurance carrier.

Now if one group does not ratify, what happens to the plan?

Buck - you were supposed to have forgotten about that and thrown away the sales pitch by now.

How inconvenient - the union and company were caught in another lie.

 

[exs]

I disagree, legally that money is in a Trust in my name. I dont believe that it can be used for another employees medical. And I am willing to engage a Class Action Lawsuit to find out.

Include me in this Lawsuit.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Include me in this Lawsuit.

... and me -

 

[iluvaa]

1. God I hate these lying bastards (company and union) burn um down vote hell NO

 

[Buck]

unilaterally:

unilateral [yoo-nuh-lat-er-uh l]

—adjective

4. Law .

a. pertaining to a contract that can be formed only when the party to whom an offer is made renders the performance for which the offeror bargains.

b. pertaining to a contract in which obligation rests on only one party, as a binding promise to make a gift.

Question: is the Pre funding Plan a LOA (Letter of Agreement)

 

[Bob Owens]

I disagree, legally that money is in a Trust in my name. I dont believe that it can be used for another employees medical. And I am willing to engage a Class Action Lawsuit to find out.

The match isnt. Thats why when you look up your balance it only shows half because unless they cancel the plan thats all you get. If you opt out of the plan or are are terminated its pretty clear they keep those funds, they can only use them to pay benefits, much like any unused money we dont use in the Flexible spending account, or the monies from the Supplimental Medical Plan they cancelled. While they cant add it to the General fund the result is the same because it takes the place of payments from the General fund that they wont have to make.

The company has the right to terminate the plan, and give us back both halves, They do not need the Judge to do it either, it says it right in the plan. What they are trying to do is get us to open the door for some way, currently through the 1114 process, to get their hands on it. In their latest update on the Early out they admit that if it goes through that process we may not get it. Thats their opening. We must not agree to letting them cancell it, let them do it unilaterally, which they can, but then they cant touch the match.If we agree, we lose the match.