Pilots want a Raise

[700UW]

How many mergers have you been through?

I have been through three, SCS status means the union that is granted it upon certification with the other union not filing for an election with the time period all fall under the IAM CBA.

This has been rehashed a thousand times.

A change in certification does not change the CBA.

PS, and US, all fall under the IAM CBA.

PI and US all fall under the IAM CBA

TS and US all fall under the IAM CBA.

Transition Agreements were negotiated.

Show us one case where the ibt claims has happened.

Even on your 104 propaganda the ibt even admitted the IAM CBA would the surviving CBA.

The raise the East got were contractual increases. Thank your ibt-cwa team for negotiating that, the east agents had nothing to do with it.

 

[700AW]

"The raise the East got were contractual increases. Thank your ibt-cwa team for negotiating that, the east agents had nothing to do with it.
[/quote]

no they were part of the transition agreement, which if accepted the east csr's would drop the change of control grievance. it unfroze the step-freeze put on the csr's. it was not a contracual raise. section 4 again you wrong... me right...

http://files.cwa-union.org/CwaNet/TransitionAgreement.pdf

 

[700UW]

Hate to tell you this but MLE means Mainline Express Agents, not Mainline. Me right you wrong!

What about the other issues?

You are wrong on those too!

 

[700AW]

Hate to tell you this but MLE means Mainline Express Agents, not Mainline. Me right you wrong!

What about the other issues?

You are wrong on those too!

thanks for clearing that up, i forgot to add that the west csr's get the same timetable and raises as MLE

under section 4 you will see the step freeze elimination..
and on the afa contract, it is right there in the transition agreement.. so is wrong...Pal

 

[700UW]

Seems you were right and wrong as I was.

No clear cut winner there bud.

Still waiting for the other issues.

Guess you cant find anything to back up your point of view as I provided facts.

 

[insp89]

Given the fact that there are several "contract" facilities licensed by the FAA to work on airplanes like ours, and that most of the stations have "contract" line maintenance, I think that the mechanics could be outsourced (and replaced) within one business day given the proper motivation.

Boeing had the order exactly correct.

F/A's would take a week or two.

Pilots a few more weeks.

But no group is irreplaceable.

With all the pilots that are now laid off, You actually think it will take more time to replace a pilot than it would a A&P mechanic or a F/A ??? Pilot's are a dime a dozen, Just like everyone else in this globalistic society...Hard to compete with third world slave labor.

To be honest with you, I changed the "order" just to mess with Boeingboy a little bit.
In reality, It just does NOT MATTER.....

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not more time to hire, but quite possibly more time to put him/her to work. Doesn't matter if a pilot new-hire has 10,000 hours in one of our aircraft types or 500 hours in a CRJ - they'd both go through the same FAA required initial training.

Same, to a lesser degree, with F/A's - the FAA has been know to reduce training requirements for new-hires, but not eliminate them.

That's why I picked the 4 groups as hardest to replace quickly (once I corrected my oversight and added the dispatchers). They all have something in common - FAA required certification and/or FAA required company-specific training.

As I said earlier, none of us in irreplacable (though the execs may think they are). So which group is harder to replace boils down to the time lag between hiring and putting to work.

Jim

 

[john john]

Given the fact that there are several "contract" facilities licensed by the FAA to work on airplanes like ours, and that most of the stations have "contract" line maintenance, I think that the mechanics could be outsourced (and replaced) within one business day given the proper motivation.

But no group is irreplaceable.

2/3 of US flying is already contracted out. Would not take much to do the rest a call I think would do

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, 2/3 of the flights are contracted out but who out there has even 100, much less almost 360 mainline type aircraft sitting around idle? Or even that many RJ's sitting idle?

Of course, they'd need the crews (pilots & F/A's) already trained and just sitting around also.

Jim

 

[john john]

Comair comes to mine just like Air Wisconsin left UA to US

 

[FLYLOW22]

The Pigs already emptied the trough! Its the runts that might want some of the leftovers instead of being sent to slaughter!

My take.

The farm has changed it's rules.

1950's-1978 Little real competition. Employee groups wanted a pay increase. The company gave in during negotiations and billed the US Gov't. Professionalism, pride, innovation and creativity (and hot pants) were abundant.

1978-1990ish Companies were forced to compete or die. Employee groups wanted a pay increase and for the 1st time (post-degreg) comapnies were forced to compete or die. No worries. Those companies whose business model wasn't founded on unicorns and rainbows seemed to find their way. Others merged with smaller entities so that they could compete and several failed proving themselves unable to adapt. The layer of fat built up while suckling off of the US teet had begun to be reabsorbed. Airlines were becoming more efficient which was a good thing. Pay rates didn't decline by double digit numbers; they maintained. Some management types did, however, identify labor as a VERY easy target for further cost savings and we in the industry saw some of the very 1st B Scales and other labor cost savings initiatives introduced. Those 1st were not to be the last. Union busting is also another favored tactic of some management types. Some airlines fell hard, some nearly fell and others scattered to spend as much of their warchest as possible on other airlines to make the individual airline's balance sheet and income statement look like an undesireable dance partner.

1990ish through 2000 The model is broken. Losses abound and employees wonder, "WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG"?? "Management custodians" (CEO/President) continue to walk through the revolving door of Airline HQs accross the country. ie... CEO walks in the front door with a full carde of supporters, excited employees (about to be screwed) music, confetti and a free pizza lunch. The "NEW CEO" is full of bright ideas and ways to "save" the airline. Employees bite in with full vigor and enthusiasm. They follow the CEO into battle, running at full speed, dodging pitfalls, turning corners and fighting the enemy. They can't see what is ahead of them but they CAN still see their hero, the CEO. "No matter. He will protect us.", they say. The CEO jumps off of a cliff just ahead of the brave employees behind him and deployes a golden parachute completed with stock options, a bonus severance package and a wet bar staffed by 12 virgins.

The employees fall off the end of the cliff.

The model was broken and would likely have failed within 10 years of the end of this period anyway. Some airlines would have begun to fail in less than 5 years following this period as the continual FAIL or MERGE phenomenon that began following deregulation continued into a 3rd round of collapse. Management simply recognized that fact that the model was broken (or were too stupid to recognize it) and decided to begin making corporate decisions for today instead of investing in tomorrow. Why invest in tomorrow... the model was broken. Where can they continue to harvest new cost savings? LABOR!!! "Why not. They're stupid. Look what Harvey did over at ABC airlines. Those lemmings jumped right off the cliff. He had a nice golden parachute.", management says.

How can they replace high paying jobs easily? Regional Jets. What exactly IS a RJ? We still don't know. Is it 50 seats? 70? 90? 110? Hell, why not just make it an easy 150? It's an easier number to remember than 110 anyway.

And so the cycle continues. in comes the hero CEO. He unveils the 5 steps to recovery and "saving" the airline; complete with pay cuts in exchange for a carrot (stock options, more jet orders, massages at the layover... whatever), and finally he jumps and disappears from sight completing only those steps of his recovery program that relate to cost cutting (so he can pocket more). But he had a nice parachute.

2001. Ooops. All bets are off. "What do you mean we can't continue to poach money from labor for another 10 years until the model completely crumbles", heros across the nation cry. "I guess we simply need to speed things up", they reason.

50% paycuts become the norm. Pensions? What the hell is a pension? RJ? Bring em!!!!! Passengers don't want them so much as compared to a mainline jet but who cares... CEOs are thinking about today.

We are stillin this period. CEOs know the end of status quo is here. They are reshuffling the deck in their favor too.

Call pilots pigs if you will but with pay rates as they are the profession is dead. Pilots are individuals who has proven themselves (and continue to prove themselves) as consumate professionals. Right now the job description and responsibility factor does not match the payscale.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I guess it depends on the situation. I've been talking about a "worst case" where the entire group (or nearly so) would have to be replaced overnight. As I said, no group is irreplacable - some would just take longer than others. Doesn't make them special, more deserving of raises, or anything like that.

Even ComAir diesn't have the number of airplanes required, much less the seats, to replace the US mainline. Plus I expect DL would have something to say about them moving all their airplanes over to US flying - at least for now. DL does own ComAir, after all.

Jim

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Pilots gave the most; now they deserve some back.

Eye

 

[sharktooth]

Yeah, we saved the company and you want us to stand in line. Without our pension going you'd be working at McDonalds.

Common misconception.

Giving up the pilot pension did _not_ save the company.

However, it did allow an incompetent management "team" to keep their jobs.

BTW, PITbull,

excellent takedown.

 

[PITbull]

Pilots are individuals who has proven themselves (and continue to prove themselves) as consumate professionals. Right now the job description and responsibility factor does not match the payscale.

I couldn't agree more across the board, with an emphasis on Express pilots as well. IMO, they not only need major pay increase with emphasis on MAJOR, but their work rules need revamped with monitored "rest periods" and regulated min standards increased by the FAA. Anyone flying Express especially the crews need to start reporting fatigue. As the skys get more crowded, it will become much more dangerous.

When airlines start reporting profits, all groups need to approach managment for "reopeners". And I don't mean the $50 bucks for "on time". Thats less than a tank of gas.

Clearly, there is gross disparity when folks find it cheaper to fly than drive to their destination.
Fares need to be rational, and management needs to be "fair" to workers. Just for the sake of example, there is a shortage of ramp workers. At slightly above min wage it is very difficult to find reliable workers at $7/hr. Its not worth damaging your knees and back working with reduced workers with incease in checked lugggage and pax traveling. This summer, they predict with such a shortage, the baggage handlers baggage delays,loss, damage for all airlines will be cataclysmic.

Traveling customers this summer either need to drive, take a bus or train, or plan on wearing the same outfit the entire duration of your trip if you decide to fly. B)