Pilot Pension Issue - Just the Facts

[Biffeman]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 12:38:40 PM autofixer wrote:
[P]Biffeman, The pilots have taken their lumps...twice lately and many times in the last 10 years. So they wildcat? It will be ALPA's problem then. Assuming a wildcat walkout, if U pilots are out of work after U shuts down, how will ALPA get any assesment out of them? ALPA helped get the pilots into this situation by being stupid! [BR][BR]People on this board are fond of saying, "quit if you don't like it!" You may just see several thousand six figure pilots just do that. I hope you can replace your five figure income and benefits soon. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]I doubt several thousand pilots or ALPA national will walkout, your group has always and will continue to feed its young to the wolves. I would love to see a pilot making six figures go home and tell his wife and family I walked off my job, got fired from making over $100,000 a year cause the company and the pbgc took my pension, food stamps and welfare await.

 

[chipmunn]

What's different about the company's request to terminate the pilot pension plan and the other labor restructuring agreements are:

1. ALPA is the only labor group to be asked to terminate their pension whereas the other seven labor groups would keep their pension intact. Is that fair? Many pilots believe if ALPA is forced to take another deep cut so should other employee groups, isn’t that fair? One for all, all for one.

2. Except for ALPA and salaried employees, every other employee can work over time to increase their gross earnings. Is that fair?

3. Pilots are forced to retire by the federal government at age 60 and thus take the PBGC minimum retirement, whereas every other employee group can work to age 65 and take the PBGC maximum retirement. Again, is that fair where pilots are forced by the government to retire with a PBGC minimum of $28,000 per year where other employees could receive from the PBGC $44,000 per year?

In regard to the S.1113 action and the strike, ALPA Legal believes a strike is possible. In anticipation of a work stopage, what do you believe would happen to bookings? Moreover, the company would likely violate terms of its bankruptcy financing agreements and even with one day of a strike, the airline would likely be forced into Chapter 7.

ALPA and its members know what is at stake and the risks. The rank-and-file and MEC is 100 percent together on this issue and there will be no capitulation. Expect to hear more from the ALPA MEC shortly.

Again, I believe it's in everybody's best interest for a legislative solution, otherwise the end may be near.

Chip

 

[OldpropGuy]

Chip,[BR][BR]I agree totally with your statement "Again, I believe it's in everybody's best interest for a legislative solution, otherwise the end may be near."[BR][BR]But, as this is not likely to happen, what is plan "B" or what other solution do you suggest as the company does not have the cash to fund the plan?[BR]

 

[cockroach club]

Chip, two questions:

1. Why should the taxpayers bail your pension out if it is not economical for your employer to provide it?

2. What are all of the pilots going to do when they are out on the street, with no benefits other than whatever you can get from ALPA, the PBGC minimum at retirement and social security?

 

[Biffeman]

Mr Planes you are wrong once again:[BR][BR][SPAN class=BodyFont]Mr Planes, you have no rights.[BR]The PBGC is a federal corporation, they will terminate your plan, not the company. You can't strike, it would be a wildcat, illegal under the RLA, you cant cause a sickout or slowdown or US will sue you like AA did to APA and bankrupt your union. It is a crappy situatution and you are not in a position of power. What happens next is up to the PBGC, and you will most likily lose your pension and then ALPA and the company will be forced to negotiate a replacement plan.[BR][BR]Chip is spouting 1113 1113, the company does not need to file any motion, the PBGC can legally terminate the plan and there is nothing ALPA or US can do.[BR][BR]The company will let the plan funding levels drop further causing the PBGC to step in and terminate it, the company does not have to file any court motions in either case of termination.[BR][BR][A name=terminate] [BR][BR][FONT face=Helvetica color=#000080]Q. [/FONT][FONT face=Helvetica]How do pension plans end? [/FONT][BR][BR][FONT face=Helvetica color=#000080]A.[/FONT][FONT color=#000080] [/FONT]Employers can end (terminate) pension plans in one of two ways. [BR][BR]In a standard termination, an employer ends a fully funded plan after showing PBGC that there is enough money to pay all benefits. The plan will provide the benefits owed either by purchasing an annuity from an insurance company which will provide periodic payments for life or, if your plan allows, all at once in a lump-sum. Your plan administrator must tell you what insurance company or companies your plan is considering as a possible annuity provider before making a final selection. PBGC's guarantee ends when the employer purchases the annuities or otherwise pays you the value of your pension. [BR][BR][FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"]In a distress termination, an employer ends a plan that does not have enough money to pay all benefits owed. To do so, however, the employer must prove to PBGC that the business is financially unable to support the plan. PBGC takes over the plan as trustee and uses its own assets and any remaining assets in the plan to make sure that current and future retirees receive their pension benefits, within the legal limits. [/FONT][BR][BR][FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"]Under certain conditions, PBGC may terminate a pension plan, on its own initiative. PBGC can take such action if, for example, a plan does not have sufficient assets to pay benefits currently due. [/FONT][/A][/SPAN][BR][BR]
[P][A name=4]4. What is a plan termination?[/A] [BR][BR]
[P]A pension plan is terminated only by following certain specific rules: [BR][BR]
[P]A plan that does not have enough money to pay all benefits owed participants and beneficiaries may be terminated only if the employer and the members of the employer's "controlled group" of affiliated companies each meets one of the distress termination tests. To do so, however, the employer must prove that the controlled group is financially unable to support the plan. PBGC takes over the plan as trustee and uses its own assets and any remaining assets in the plan to make sure that current and future retirees of the plan receive their pension benefits, within the legal limits. PBGC also tries to collect plan underfunding from employers and shares a portion of its recoveries with participants and beneficiaries.
[P]Under certain conditions, PBGC may terminate a pension plan, even if a company has not filed to terminate the plan on its own initiative. PBGC will take such action if a plan does not have sufficient assets to pay benefits currently due and may do so in other cases. This is called an involuntary termination.
[P align=right][A href="http://www.pbgc.gov/FAQTERM.HTM#top"]Back to Top[/A][/P]

 

[wings396]

Walk out on a Wildcat...hum...no pension or paycheck...you will have to think about one for a while...at least the CWA & IAM didn't threaten a walkout. And you say some foriegn carriers are hiring, Iran Air maybe...good luck fellas.....

 

[OldpropGuy]

[STRONG][FONT color=#666666 size=3]US Airways Legal Brief filed with the Bankruptcy Court Says, "The RLA Would Not Allow US Airways' Employees to Strike [BR][/FONT][/STRONG][A href="http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=568&forumID=37&catID=9&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={EEFCAE55-E2D7-4117-B279-E77DAA6CEE27}"]http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=568&forumID=37&catID=9&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={EEFCAE55-E2D7-4117-B279-E77DAA6CEE27}[/A]}

 

[Biffeman]

And Chip for the past year and half while I was still a Stock Clerk there was none, zero, nada overtime. So dont tell us we can make it up by working overtime.[BR][BR]And Chip the company has not come out formally and "asked" to terminate your pension. The company would have to ask the PBGC, not ALPA to terminate it. All the company will do is let the funding levels continue to drop and then the PBGC will involuntary terminate is in their own distress termination.

 

[PSA1979]

Chip wrote: Except for ALPA and salaried employees, every other employee can work over time to increase their gross earnings. Is that fair?
I beg to differ with you there Chip, as a flight attendant I can only work my option. I am on International and fly 6 trips. I can't fly any more than that. 6 trips to Manchester, Eng. is only 90 hours plus some change. I can't hold the higher time trips, I can't work overtime without getting suspended. Is that fair for me and all the other AFA members?

 

[pitguy]

-The pilot groups knows there had to take extra cuts because they just received their 17% raise. Everyone else was due to get similar raises but did not because of the "new" contracts. So the pilots had to give that last raise right back. Everyone else just did not get it.

-The pilots are getting 20% of company stock. (WOW!)

-There are few pilot jobs out there now and no one wants the few overseas jobs there are for pilots. This is still their best option.

-We are most likely going to war and there is no light at the end of this recessions tunnel. It could still get worse for airlines.

-The current pilot retirement package is insane. It is too much. Too costly. It should have never been agreed to someone making over 6 figures to retire.

-We are now becoming a low cost carrier which will include low cost employee compensation and yes pilots will be compensated less.

-Most likely the pilots will not even vote and they will not strike. The pilots are not that stupid. But hence they do know to get the best deal they must convince the company they will strike.

-Some find humor in seeing them sweat it out.

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/22/2003 1:55:07 PM chipmunn wrote:

What's different about the company's request to terminate the pilot pension plan and the other labor restructuring agreements are:

1. ALPA is the only labor group to be asked to terminate their pension whereas the other seven labor groups would keep their pension intact. Is that fair? Many pilots believe if ALPA is forced to take another deep cut so should other employee groups, isn’t that fair? One for all, all for one.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Chip,

You KNOW that is not true. Agents DBRP's were frozen in 1993. DCRP's started in 1995, running through 12/31/02. For the CWA, that DCRP continues. For fleet, we started in the IAM fund 1/1/03 with ZERO years of service credit. That's right ZERO,NADA,ZIP.

Keep in mind DCRP's are not covered by the PBGC. If your account tanks, you are SOL.

The scary part is there are some at ALPA that obviously thinks they're the only victim here.

The good news is we all know who's credibility is shot.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 3:28:47 PM ClueByFour wrote:
[P]Some food for thought:[BR][BR]Because ALPA's lawyers think a strike would be legal, does not make it so.[BR][BR]1. The PBGC terminates the pension.[BR]2. ALPA then has to convince the bankruptcy judge that the contract has been violated and/or abrogated.[BR]3. The company, meanwhile, is trying to convince the judge that the PBGC did it, and the company had no other recourse. Bear in mind that the judge has never refused a company motion, and is looking out for the creditors, whose best interests seem to be with US in continuing operations as a going concern.[BR]4. Best case--the judge sees the pension action as a 1113(e) action, and orders negotiations (and/or or a secion 6 type of scenario under the RLA, IIRC).[BR][BR]That has to go on until an impasse is declared + 30 days. [BR][BR]All this assumes that ALPA can convince a judge that a PBGC termination even represents a breach of contract. This, by itself, is an iffy proposition.[BR][BR]If you are not angry (understandable) and drinking the union kool-aide (a pity, but understandable), the situation becomes a lot less cut and dry.[BR][BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]I don't think that there is anything in the section 1113 about "cooling off periods" or PEBs. I believe the way it reads a strike could occur immediately upon imposition of the new contract. We are not talking RLA here, but bankruptcy laws. Totally different animals. No KoolAid drinking required in this case, only good, common sense. This is one issue that will mean the demise of US Airways. I really hope that Dave and team fully understand this. I want to stay here as much as anyone else, but I honestly believe that US Airways will cease to exist shortly if this issue is not dealt with in an appropriate manner.

 

[tugslug4hire?]

Alpa wasn't a team player in 92 when some employee groups had their pensions elimated...( I don't recall hearing ONE pilot say they should give up some of their pension so that others could keep theirs) yet you want all employee that still have a plan to "suffer" in your time of distress..ain't gonna happen

 

[ClueByFour]

Some food for thought:[BR][BR]Because ALPA's lawyers think a strike would be legal, does not make it so.[BR][BR]1. The PBGC terminates the pension.[BR]2. ALPA then has to convince the bankruptcy judge that the contract has been violated and/or abrogated.[BR]3. The company, meanwhile, is trying to convince the judge that the PBGC did it, and the company had no other recourse. Bear in mind that the judge has never refused a company motion, and is looking out for the creditors, whose best interests seem to be with US in continuing operations as a going concern.[BR]4. Best case--the judge sees the pension action as a 1113(e) action, and orders negotiations (and/or or a secion 6 type of scenario under the RLA, IIRC).[BR][BR]That has to go on until an impasse is declared + 30 days. [BR][BR]All this assumes that ALPA can convince a judge that a PBGC termination even represents a breach of contract. This, by itself, is an iffy proposition.[BR][BR]If you are not angry (understandable) and drinking the union kool-aide (a pity, but understandable), the situation becomes a lot less cut and dry.[BR][BR]

 

[Biffeman]

Once again oldie you are wrong, there are nine steps that have to be followed for an total abrogation and the company ie UA just used an 1113e filing to impose paycuts.