Pilot Pension Issue - Just the Facts

[chipmunn]

During the Senate Appropriations Committee hearing the PBGC's General Counsel indicated the PBGC would not terminate the pilot pension. Therefore, US Airways will have to unilaterally terminate the plan and set the stage with a battle with ALPA.

Interesting times...because the MEC is in 100 percent agreement on this issue.

Again, to get a jump I suggest all US Airways employees may want to seek another position.

Chip

 

[savyinvestor]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 4:55:05 PM chipmunn wrote:

During the Senate Appropriations Committee hearing the PBGC's General Counsel indicated the PBGC would not terminate the pilot pension. Therefore, US Airways will have to unilaterally terminate the plan and set the stage with a battle with ALPA.

Interesting times...because the MEC is in 100 percent agreement on this issue.

Again, to get a jump I suggest all US Airways employees may want to seek another position.

Chip

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[/blockquote]
I doubt they would continue to maintain that position for very long. Also, I just read that Lufthansa is cutting back and eliminating 36 aircraft FWIW. Savy

 

[savyinvestor]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 540 PM mlt wrote:

Savy,
When it was our turn to cast our vote Chip was insisting that we say yes, someone inquired if he was concerned about his paycheck & pension. His response was along this line. (paraphrasing)

"I have my military pension, my 401K, my IRA, my wife's pension and her 401K. Additionally I have a job offer that my wife is encouraging me to take."

Somehow the importance of his pension has taken on a new dimension.


Chip,
When air traffic tells you that you have to go around, do you whine that the plane in front of you was able to land? Do you tell them that unless every airplane that attempts to land after you "goes around" you are not diverting?
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[/blockquote]
I can remember that quote and that she worked for a Fortune 500 company. I could say more, but I'm not into personal attacks. I have tried to remain neutral, but find myself now rooting for the underdog. What the pilots including Captain Munn are threating to do is unconscionable for reasons I have already stated. There is no way in my mind that I could put thousands out of work because I refused to take a lesser pension. In spite of that good luck to all. Savy

 

[savyinvestor]

[blockquote]
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On 1/22/2003 3:28:47 PM ClueByFour wrote:

Some food for thought:

Because ALPA's lawyers think a strike would be legal, does not make it so.

1. The PBGC terminates the pension.
2. ALPA then has to convince the bankruptcy judge that the contract has been violated and/or abrogated.
3. The company, meanwhile, is trying to convince the judge that the PBGC did it, and the company had no other recourse. Bear in mind that the judge has never refused a company motion, and is looking out for the creditors, whose best interests seem to be with US in continuing operations as a going concern.
4. Best case--the judge sees the pension action as a 1113(e) action, and orders negotiations (and/or or a secion 6 type of scenario under the RLA, IIRC).

That has to go on until an impasse is declared + 30 days.

All this assumes that ALPA can convince a judge that a PBGC termination even represents a breach of contract. This, by itself, is an iffy proposition.

If you are not angry (understandable) and drinking the union kool-aide (a pity, but understandable), the situation becomes a lot less cut and dry.

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[/blockquote]
Well said Clue. It appears the PBGC can terminate the pension plan without U having to do anything. It appears the pilots won't budge so the PBGC will terminate the plan for lack of funding. Sad , but true. Savy

 

[mlt]

Savy,[BR]When it was our turn to cast our vote Chip was insisting that we say yes, someone inquired if he was concerned about his paycheck & pension. His response was along this line. (paraphrasing)[BR][BR]"I have my military pension, my 401K, my IRA, my wife's pension and her 401K. Additionally I have a job offer that my wife is encouraging me to take." [BR][BR]Somehow the importance of his pension has taken on a new dimension.[BR][BR][BR]Chip,[BR]When air traffic tells you that you have to go around, do you whine that the plane in front of you was able to land? Do you tell them that unless every airplane that attempts to land after you "goes around" you are not diverting?

 

[St. Leibowitz]

After everything that has gone down in the 5 months since the BK filing: the gut wrenching decisions and sacrifices on the part of everyone, individually and collectively; it will be a singularly undignified end if the official cause of death is listed as "testosterone poisoning".

 

[chipmunn]

Mlt:

The ALPA MEC today indicated they were in total agreement by a 12-0 margin and tomorrow will meet to decide contingency strategies.

There is tremendous pilot resolve and I am making options for life without US Airways.

It's not fair to single out one employee group and let seven others not participate in pension changes. This is not a "socialized" country and the ALPA MEC understands the risks.

So do I...and I am preparing accordingly.

Chip

P.S. Instead of lobbying me, why don't you lobby the MEC?

 

[pitguy]

I wonder what management type agreed to such a large burdening pension anyhow.



- If you don't like it quit.

- Live to fight another day.

 

[Baret4]

Chip,
I guess you should just take the six figure job with Qatar Airways, but be warned there is very limited internet access there. Good luck.

Baret and Betty

 

[mlt]

Chip,[BR] The ALPA MEC that is preparing strategy is this the same MEC that:[BR][BR]A. stated you did not speak for them?[BR][BR]B. purportedly temporarily banned you from posting on their message board?[BR][BR]OR, perhaps you are getting inside information from the man who used you as the other woman:[BR][BR]The man that sat behind you on the jumpseat whispering sweet nothings into your ear. I will take care of you; just wait in time everything will be ok.[BR][BR]Chip, admit it, You were had. I am certain you are embarassed and hurt. However, the key to survival is admitting you were had and move one.

 

[chipmunn]

Dave & Betty:[BR][BR]Wrong part of the world. However, you bring up a good point about Internet access. In fact, now that I think about it that's refreshing.[BR][BR]Chip

 

[chipmunn]

Mlt:[BR][BR]The MEC suspended me for 30 days from the message baord, but many members have been suspended as well. The suspension was to satisfy IAM and CWA Reps to stop their complaining to Chris over my CLT Observer OpEd column.[BR][BR]Regardless, I know and communicate with members of the MEC and NC on a daily basis and I know what's happening "inside" of ALPA. If this pension issue is not properly fixed it's time to move on because the fight will not be pretty. I'm prepared to move on...[BR][BR]Chip

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/22/2003 4:53:06 PM Biffeman wrote:
[P]Once again oldie you are wrong, there are nine steps that have to be followed for an total abrogation and the company ie UA just used an 1113e filing to impose paycuts.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]And you think that the UA mechanics CAN'T STRIKE? I think you are quite wrong, and the cuts the court put in place were TEMPORARY, subject to a T/A with the comapny (just like all the other groups at UAL have). Once they are made permanent, action CAN be taken.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You ALL miss out on one important point, which cannot be overlooked. In order for the company to terminate a pension in anything other than a "distressed termination", which apparently the PBGC is unwilling to do, the pensions have to be FULLY FUNDED. That's the rule. AND, if it is fully funded, then there isn't any problem. Looks to me like the only two choices are 1) fully fund the pension, or 2) chapter 7. That's it, like it or not. I don't think that ALPA has to do a thing. If the company goes Chapter 7, they may blame ALPA, but it won't be their fault. The company has known about this abligation all along, and even if they terminated future retirements, they would STILL HAVE TO FULLY FUND THE OLD PLAN. That's it! Even if ALPA agreed to a termination, the company would still have to fully fund the plan before it could be terminated!

 

[N628AU]

Chip, you did not address what I stated in the other thread before it was closed, so please answer this:

Did or did not Seigel say that if there is no choice but to terminate the pilot pension plan, that the company would not leave the pilot's high and dry, but the pilot's would get the PBGC payout, plus whatever the company can supplement that payment with?

Also, do you really believe that 4000+ pilots are going to vote themselves out of an upper middle class job, that is really a primo position (very white collar BTW)? You may in fact have another position lined up for six figures, but many do not, and will not see that kind of money again. All those pilots over 50 will never ever see the pay they get now, because let's face it, there is job discrimination in the job hunting market, ask anyone laid off past say, age 45. A college degree earned 25 years ago, with no business experience because all you have done is fly will get you to about a $30,000 entry level position if you are lucky in today's job market.

The MEC may very well be unanimous, at least in this vote. Do you really think the silent majority of the pilot group will vote to throw their careers, lives, and houses away? I would like to see most of the mainline pilots make their mortgage payments, car and boat payments, etc on $400.00 weekly unemployment (before taxes) from the state.

Please understand I am asking this on a rational basis, and you seem to be more emotional now than I have ever seen you. While I may not agree with everything you post, I always felt you are entitled to your opinion, here or anywhere else, and have always seen you posts as grounded in facts rather than emotion. Perhaps you need a break from the boards for a few days?