Pilot Pension Issue - Just the Facts
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ClueByFour
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[blockquote]
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On 1/21/2003 5:09:33 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:
Actually, it is more amusing than a bother. I love watching the less skilled labor try to tell the pilots what to think. In reality there's really only one group that can shut this thing down for good; and only then if they're consolidated. I agree that this is the defining issue for the pilot group; either the company will find a way to make it work, or ALL of U's employees, including management, will need another form of employment. That's the reality of the situation, no matter how loud, rude or senseless your arguments are.
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[/blockquote]
First of all, and I hate to break this to you:
(sarcasm on)
A pilot is no more skilled or less skilled than a lot of other groups on the property. The training is harder and more expensive to come by (in some cases--the millitary guys clearly have a different type of sacrafice for their training). But that's it. Some of us who have absolutely nothing to do with an airline in a professional sense fly in our spare time. Were it that skilled, a union would not be required to earn large coin, as the market would drive up the cost of the craft, eh?
(sarcasm off)
Okay, I don't really see it that way. I'll repeat for the folks in the back who have missed the first couple of posts I've made to this effect: The biggest problem the pilot group faces with the pension difficulties is a PR PROBLEM!!! Don't come off as arrogant pompus throttle jockeys, and there would be a much higher level of support from congress, the public, and other labor groups. Okay, that was too harsh.
RE: shutting the thing down--Eastern proved that a group besides the pilots can kill an airline.
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On 1/21/2003 5:09:33 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:
Actually, it is more amusing than a bother. I love watching the less skilled labor try to tell the pilots what to think. In reality there's really only one group that can shut this thing down for good; and only then if they're consolidated. I agree that this is the defining issue for the pilot group; either the company will find a way to make it work, or ALL of U's employees, including management, will need another form of employment. That's the reality of the situation, no matter how loud, rude or senseless your arguments are.
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[/blockquote]
First of all, and I hate to break this to you:
(sarcasm on)
A pilot is no more skilled or less skilled than a lot of other groups on the property. The training is harder and more expensive to come by (in some cases--the millitary guys clearly have a different type of sacrafice for their training). But that's it. Some of us who have absolutely nothing to do with an airline in a professional sense fly in our spare time. Were it that skilled, a union would not be required to earn large coin, as the market would drive up the cost of the craft, eh?
(sarcasm off)
Okay, I don't really see it that way. I'll repeat for the folks in the back who have missed the first couple of posts I've made to this effect: The biggest problem the pilot group faces with the pension difficulties is a PR PROBLEM!!! Don't come off as arrogant pompus throttle jockeys, and there would be a much higher level of support from congress, the public, and other labor groups. Okay, that was too harsh.
RE: shutting the thing down--Eastern proved that a group besides the pilots can kill an airline.
Try rolling down a runway under adverse conditions with 444 souls on board. (All seats and jumpseats full plus lappers) 44.4 per finger tip. A surgeon works at a level of 0.1 souls per finger tip; and, has been known to take a "bank break" in the middle.
[blockquote]
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On 1/21/2003 4
37 PM mrplanes wrote:
If Dave does not honor his committment made in LOA 84 we WILL stop flying these jets. And then the ball is in his court.
You, I and about 95% of the group still on this property will not fly these jets unless he lives up to his promise.
[/blockquote]
That would leave the door open for quit a few of the furloughed pilots, from all different airlines, to move right in and fill the seats. Enjoy your other job. You may need it.
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On 1/21/2003 4
37 PM mrplanes wrote: If Dave does not honor his committment made in LOA 84 we WILL stop flying these jets. And then the ball is in his court.
You, I and about 95% of the group still on this property will not fly these jets unless he lives up to his promise.
[/blockquote]
That would leave the door open for quit a few of the furloughed pilots, from all different airlines, to move right in and fill the seats. Enjoy your other job. You may need it.
C
chipmunn
Guest
Cat III said So you can't take your 1 million lump sum pension. I feel so sorry for you.How does it feel to have the shoe on the other foot? If you don't like it QUIT.
Chip answers: CatIII, I do not think you have to worry about my opinion because those with the power have taken action into their own hands. In another thread I wrote:
The US Airways ALPA MEC has told Dave Siegel "give us what you promised or go pound sand". All 12 members feel very strong about this point and the MEC is waiting for Siegel's response.
It is my understanding to terminate the pension plan, the company must seek a S.1113 motion, which will terminate the entire contract. At this point the pilots can strike and there are discussions in place to activate the Strike Preparedness and Family Awareness Committee.
Tonight in a code-a-phone udpate ALPA spokesman Roy Freundlich said, "On Thursday, January 23, the Retirement and Insurance Committee, Negotiating Committee, MEC officers and Communications Committee will be conducting an internal meeting with ALPA and MEC professional and legal advisors at the ALPA offices in Herndon. MEC Chairman Bill Pollock has scheduled the meeting to coordinate pension plan issues and MEC contingency strategies. The MEC is anticipating a special meeting on pension issues in early February."
As I have said before, it is in the best interest of everybody associated with US Airways to find a legislative solution to this problem.
Chip
Chip answers: CatIII, I do not think you have to worry about my opinion because those with the power have taken action into their own hands. In another thread I wrote:
The US Airways ALPA MEC has told Dave Siegel "give us what you promised or go pound sand". All 12 members feel very strong about this point and the MEC is waiting for Siegel's response.
It is my understanding to terminate the pension plan, the company must seek a S.1113 motion, which will terminate the entire contract. At this point the pilots can strike and there are discussions in place to activate the Strike Preparedness and Family Awareness Committee.
Tonight in a code-a-phone udpate ALPA spokesman Roy Freundlich said, "On Thursday, January 23, the Retirement and Insurance Committee, Negotiating Committee, MEC officers and Communications Committee will be conducting an internal meeting with ALPA and MEC professional and legal advisors at the ALPA offices in Herndon. MEC Chairman Bill Pollock has scheduled the meeting to coordinate pension plan issues and MEC contingency strategies. The MEC is anticipating a special meeting on pension issues in early February."
As I have said before, it is in the best interest of everybody associated with US Airways to find a legislative solution to this problem.
Chip
I've read this thread and it's hard to believe. Several of my friends are pilots and I just set back and listen to what they have to say about what they are going to do.
The only comment that I give them is to update their resumes, because if they stike over the penion, you can sure bet that Mr. Dave will hand out a FOR SALE sign. nice used equipment cheap. Think about it folks, how you gonna keep up that life style flying a RJ or corporate.
Bye Bye
The only comment that I give them is to update their resumes, because if they stike over the penion, you can sure bet that Mr. Dave will hand out a FOR SALE sign. nice used equipment cheap. Think about it folks, how you gonna keep up that life style flying a RJ or corporate.
Bye Bye
St. Leibowitz
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And I thought my ex-wife was bad. In my 42 years on this earth I have never seen a more arrogant, self-serving example of hypocracy as is now being foot-stamped by the pilots posting to this board. Had I not witnessed its evolution firsthand, nobody could have convinced me it had occurred.
25000 of your colleagues have all but sold their children into slavery in the fight for the survival of this company. And after all that, while your salaries continue to exceed $100K you are proudly shouting that you will close it down, render all the sacrifices you demanded of your friends moot and put them all out of work rather than accept the same givebacks you so stridently exhorted them to accept for fear of yourselves being put out of work.
I have said it before: your capacity to astonish is limitless.
Un-effing-believeable.
The silver lining, I guess, is that the regional pilots can finally relax their sphincters when j4j, your misbegotten son, dies along with US Airways.
25000 of your colleagues have all but sold their children into slavery in the fight for the survival of this company. And after all that, while your salaries continue to exceed $100K you are proudly shouting that you will close it down, render all the sacrifices you demanded of your friends moot and put them all out of work rather than accept the same givebacks you so stridently exhorted them to accept for fear of yourselves being put out of work.
I have said it before: your capacity to astonish is limitless.
Un-effing-believeable.
The silver lining, I guess, is that the regional pilots can finally relax their sphincters when j4j, your misbegotten son, dies along with US Airways.
genejockey
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[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 9:54:59 PM St. Leibowitz wrote:
[P]And I thought my ex-wife was bad. In my 42 years on this earth I have never seen a more arrogant, self-serving example of hypocracy as is now being foot-stamped by the pilots posting to this board. Had I not witnessed its evolution firsthand, nobody could have convinced me it had occurred.[BR][BR]25000 of your colleagues have all but sold their children into slavery in the fight for the survival of this company. And after all that, while your salaries continue to exceed $100K you are proudly shouting that you will close it down, render all the sacrifices you demanded of your friends moot and put them all out of work rather than accept the same givebacks you so stridently exhorted them to accept for fear of yourselves being put out of work. [BR][BR]I have said it before: your capacity to astonish is limitless.[BR][BR]Un-effing-believeable.[BR][BR]The silver lining, I guess, is that the regional pilots can finally relax their sphincters when j4j, your misbegotten son, dies along with US Airways.[BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]Well spoken! My sentiments exactly. Interesting note: On Sunday, I spoke with a good friend of mine who is a furloughed Delta pilot (Eagles fan vs Bucs fan). He said he contacted US Airways on Friday expressing interest in a job if the U pilots go on strike. He was told point blank that U is already in the process of compiling a list of furloughed pilots nationwide to prepare for a pilot strike. The person that he spoke with would not elaborate any further, but it seemed to him that U is dead serious and is preparing for the worst.
![P]](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5B%2FP%5D&hash=87aeb4f47b95cce5872086cef0a1f699)
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 9:54:59 PM St. Leibowitz wrote:
[P]And I thought my ex-wife was bad. In my 42 years on this earth I have never seen a more arrogant, self-serving example of hypocracy as is now being foot-stamped by the pilots posting to this board. Had I not witnessed its evolution firsthand, nobody could have convinced me it had occurred.[BR][BR]25000 of your colleagues have all but sold their children into slavery in the fight for the survival of this company. And after all that, while your salaries continue to exceed $100K you are proudly shouting that you will close it down, render all the sacrifices you demanded of your friends moot and put them all out of work rather than accept the same givebacks you so stridently exhorted them to accept for fear of yourselves being put out of work. [BR][BR]I have said it before: your capacity to astonish is limitless.[BR][BR]Un-effing-believeable.[BR][BR]The silver lining, I guess, is that the regional pilots can finally relax their sphincters when j4j, your misbegotten son, dies along with US Airways.[BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]Well spoken! My sentiments exactly. Interesting note: On Sunday, I spoke with a good friend of mine who is a furloughed Delta pilot (Eagles fan vs Bucs fan). He said he contacted US Airways on Friday expressing interest in a job if the U pilots go on strike. He was told point blank that U is already in the process of compiling a list of furloughed pilots nationwide to prepare for a pilot strike. The person that he spoke with would not elaborate any further, but it seemed to him that U is dead serious and is preparing for the worst.
Piney:
I agree wholeheatedly with your assesment of U being a kickbutt airline. If Dave lives up to his committment the pilots of this company will do whatever it takes to make it work. But, as of now, he is NOT living up to it. We have given him what he asked, twice, and now, after he agreed to just that, he is attempting to renege while making it look like it is out of his hands. We are much smarter than that. We invite him to be creative in solving the problem but we will NOT capitulate to anything less that what he promised in LOA 84. If he thinks we will, he is seriously underestimating the resolve of this group.
We have come too far in this process to allow pure greed to destroy the foundation he has built. I don't know if someone is giving him bad advice or if he just thinks now is the time to jerk the EARNED pension benefits out from under us. He has stated he will fund our program. But he has not stated he will adhere to the benefits he agreed to in LOA 84. When he states that this problem will be solved. If he doesn't, this industry will get instantly healthier because the pax that flew on USAirways will have to find another carrier to fly. And, believe it or not, I am much more a company man than a union man. But I, and 95% of this pilot group are willing to lose our jobs on this issue. Plain and simple. This is not a line in the sand, this is a line in concrete.
mr
I agree wholeheatedly with your assesment of U being a kickbutt airline. If Dave lives up to his committment the pilots of this company will do whatever it takes to make it work. But, as of now, he is NOT living up to it. We have given him what he asked, twice, and now, after he agreed to just that, he is attempting to renege while making it look like it is out of his hands. We are much smarter than that. We invite him to be creative in solving the problem but we will NOT capitulate to anything less that what he promised in LOA 84. If he thinks we will, he is seriously underestimating the resolve of this group.
We have come too far in this process to allow pure greed to destroy the foundation he has built. I don't know if someone is giving him bad advice or if he just thinks now is the time to jerk the EARNED pension benefits out from under us. He has stated he will fund our program. But he has not stated he will adhere to the benefits he agreed to in LOA 84. When he states that this problem will be solved. If he doesn't, this industry will get instantly healthier because the pax that flew on USAirways will have to find another carrier to fly. And, believe it or not, I am much more a company man than a union man. But I, and 95% of this pilot group are willing to lose our jobs on this issue. Plain and simple. This is not a line in the sand, this is a line in concrete.
mr
2. Have the employees quickly assemble a negotiating team representing ALL US workers union and non union to take the available funds and creat a uniform plan for everone.
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[/blockquote]
Back in 1992 I seem to remember three labor groups on the property (ALPA, IAM, AFA) formed a labor coalition the last time the company was in trouble. Two of the groups settled their contract while the third was forced to strike. One group tried to honor the picket line and the other....well word has it they had made a deal with the company to keeep working if one of the groups struck. No need to mention names, but to many their is just no trust between the groups.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Back in 1992 I seem to remember three labor groups on the property (ALPA, IAM, AFA) formed a labor coalition the last time the company was in trouble. Two of the groups settled their contract while the third was forced to strike. One group tried to honor the picket line and the other....well word has it they had made a deal with the company to keeep working if one of the groups struck. No need to mention names, but to many their is just no trust between the groups.
