Pilot Pension Issue - Just the Facts

[autofixer]

Pay, benefits, retirement...the cost of your employment is double or triple your salary. Here are some examples: Fica: 15+%, you really pay it all but you see only half on your pay stub, Medicare Tax: 7%, It is buried under fica since most people never pay out of fica any longer you don't know it is there, Medical Insurance: you pay a small percentage, the company pays the rest, Retirement (the way it used to be): payed 100% by the company, Workman's Compensation Insurance: @6%, fully paid for by the company. The list is longer, but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

I just thought of some other things, life insurance, pilot's loss of license insurance, you get my drift.

 

[CSSUP]

Chip,

What I am missing from all the pension discussion is a solution to the problem. I would think if ALPA could come up with a solution Management would leap on it with joy.

You have stated the others with pensions should accept cuts. Okay, tell me, if that happens does that solve ALPAs pension problem? From what I read the elephant in the middle of the room that is the ALPA pension will still exist.

I do not know a solution, I do not have a pension to assist you. But my suggestion is for ALPA is quit whining and start problem solving. If you do not come up with a solution then you cannot complain if someone else does.

 

[MrAeroMan]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 6:44:44 AM autofixer wrote:
[P]Pay, benefits, retirement...the cost of your employment is double or triple your salary. Here are some examples: Fica: 15+%, you really pay it all but you see only half on your pay stub, Medicare Tax: 7%, It is buried under fica since most people never pay out of fica any longer you don't know it is there, Medical Insurance: you pay a small percentage, the company pays the rest, Retirement (the way it used to be): payed 100% by the company, Workman's Compensation Insurance: @6%, fully paid for by the company. The list is longer, but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. [BR][BR]I just thought of some other things, life insurance, pilot's loss of license insurance, you get my drift. [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I understand all the costs associated with your employment but double and triple your salary? Exactly what kind of bennies do pilots receive? I know the pension is a large cost but given that I still don't think it rises to double and triple your salary. I may be wrong and if so I stand corrected but those costs seem out of whack to me. [BR]Given that let me ask a couple questions. If the legislative route fails and the pension is terminated what will be the pilots next course of action? Given the job market will you indeed strike as is permitted if the company gets the 1113 letter set aside? Would you at least listen to Dave's proposal to set up another plan to make up the difference from the terminated plan with the proposed plan? If the dollars are the same why not get on board? [/P]

 

[chipmunn]

CSSUP:

CSSUP said: What I am missing from all the pension discussion is a solution to the problem. I would think if ALPA could come up with a solution Management would leap on it with joy.

Chip comments/asks: Management has told ALPA it will not negotiate a replacement pension until the the union terminates the current pension.

Let me ask you a question, would you cancel your contract or a portion of your contract before you reached a suitable accord?

Furthermore, rank-and-file members want to know why is the company not asking the other employees (who have seven different defined benefit plans) to share the pension burden? The ink wasn't even dry on the new ALPA agreement, where the MEC was given an ultimatum of MEC ratification or the company would liquidate, before the company came and asked the pilot group for a third and very deep concession. Why is that? Did management forget to ask for this additional cut after just after ALPA agreed to a second pilot pension cut?

ALPA members want to know if we are a team, why doesn't everybody eliminate their pension?

Chip

 

[chipmunn]

Pitguy said: Where can the money come from Chip? There is none. If this retirement is not amended there will be no government loan protections. Then you will have a busted retirement and no job. Remember to live to fight another day.

Chip answers: The Company is going to have to find a solution to this problem because I do not know one pilot who is ready to concede the pension. By the way, there are many jobs outside of the U.S. for airline pilots, especially Captains for airlines like JAL, Cathay Pacific, Saudia, Eva, etc. that now pay more in tax free money than US Airways. The only thing that has held many pilots back is the retirement plan because the foreign airlines do not provide a pension.

I said this before, we are now closer to a liquidation than ever before and in my opinion ALPA will not agree to have their pension plan terminated, especially if it does not occur to the other employees as well. I believe the the Post Gazzette’s call of "It must seem for many US Airways employees that the cure to the airline’s financial woes is worse than the disease" is now the sentiment of ALPA.


Chip

 

[pitguy]

Where can the money come from Chip? There is none. If this retirement is not amended there will be no government loan protections. Then you will have a busted retirement and no job. Remember to live to fight another day.

--We are not a team Chip. Remember the pilots opted out of the team idea in 1992. It is time to 'get real'.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Chip,[BR]What's to prevent the company from coming up with more financiers for the company post-chapter 11 which could provide some kind of secured financing to fund the retirement? There is a cost of doing business, and employee retirement is one of them. The company cannot honestly think that ALPA will willingly go along with ANY plan which liquidates the retirement of it's members. For the over 50 pilots, that would be like starting over somewhere else. Maybe worse. I believe that the company had better get serious about funding ALL the pensions, even if it requires some kind of "creative financing" from outside sources. Here's one idea: The company could secure an ultra-low interest rate loan (with rates what they are now, what's stopping them?) to fund the pensions to the required level now, with payment terms on the loan over 15-30 years. Then, when the interest rates perk back up and the funds are fully funded, they use any fund over-funding to repay the loan on an accelerated basis. This is EXACTLY what they proposed to the PBGC, except that the funds would be funded immediately, rather than dumping on the PBGC for 30 years, with a third party loan secured by either a portion of the company or some assets (type to be determined). I believe that the future of U looks bright enough after all the employee concessions that someone would provide financing for this "cost of doing business".

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 1:18:25 PM pitguy wrote:
[P]Chip,[BR]Part of the negotiations game is the bluff. I know there is no way the pilots are letting the company shut down over this issue. [BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I think you are sadly mistaken. This issue WILL END US Airways. No pilots, no airline. That's all there is to it. Doesn't really matter, though. I haven't seen this management team do any better job than the teams of the past at marketing this airline and making it work. Who was it that said "you can't downsize to profitability"? It appears they were absolutely right.[/P]

 

[chipmunn]

Oldie, I do not know if any institution would invest in US Airways for the purpose you state.

In fact, I believe management and the lending institutions want to lower US Airways' retirement exposure and expense to increase earnings post bankruptcy, if the airline emerges.

Chip

 

[pitguy]

Chip,
Part of the negotiations game is the bluff. I know there is no way the pilots are letting the company shut down over this issue. You know that in the real world you do not get what you deserve, but instead you get what you negotiate. The truth is you can whine, cry and throw a hissy fit, but you have no cards to play. At least none you will really play. It is time to make adjustments and let's move on. Even if a few and I mean very few pilots walked of the job they would be the minority and not even missed. So take a deep breath and repeat those famous words "I will live to fight another day". You are just getting yourself upset over something you have no control over. Actually no one has control over it. Now let's get back to work, since we all have tons to do around here.


-- I would say the corporate job is a dead issue by now.

 

[ClueByFour]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 10:23:14 AM chipmunn wrote:
[P][BR]ALPA members want to know if we are a team, why doesn't everybody eliminate their pension? [BR][BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]First, as has been pointed out on several occasions, you are what you negotiate.[BR][BR]Secondly, the pilot pension is the only one really at risk due to it's sheer size. You guys/gals lived with the big bucks for a long time--now it's time to die by them, apparently. Or, to put it another way, are the pilots going to share some of their wealth with the rest of the company if a rebound makes the pilot's stock suddenly worthwhile? I don't see that happening. The analogy does not hold.[BR][BR]Third, and this has been mentioned before, given the events surrounding 1992, I'd be shocked and stunned if the IAM and/or AFA consider the "team" concept to run very deeply.[BR][/P]

 

[pitguy]

So be it. Close the doors then. Just make sure you will truly be happy with your new accomplishment. My money says you are just kidding yourself though. I picture all your fellow pilots saying when you head for the door, "you first" and you replying "no, you first" and that is all the further it goes. The funny part is that only you are fooling yourself because no one else is buying it.

 

[pitguy]

Oh! Every one is just dying to hire older unemployed pilots. We have all given tons here and no one would have came here knowing what we know now. I suggest to start or continue to look for new employment. The economy is still falling and the revenue projections from even one month ago are no longer valid. No one can predict this mess or were it is heading. I think that after you give back your pension then you still will be making a very good living. I doubt if you find any solidarity from any of the other labor groups which I am sure you can understand. Best of luck with your current issue, but please don't kid yourself.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 1:30:46 PM pitguy wrote: [BR][BR]So be it. Close the doors then. Just make sure you will truly be happy with your new accomplishment. My money says you are just kidding yourself though. I picture all your fellow pilots saying when you head for the door, "you first" and you replying "no, you first" and that is all the further it goes. The funny part is that only you are fooling yourself because no one else is buying it. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]No, you're kidding yourself. There comes a point where it isn't worth it anymore. The pilots on this property, in return for their loyal service, were promised a retirement. For a lot of them, it was a condition of employment. I, myself, wouldn't have accepted this job without it. I surely won't continue to work here without it. So, if the company thinks that they can just take, take, take, they'd better rethink their strategy. It's pretty dumb of management not to take into account one of their largest funding issues when they negotiated all of the post chapter 11 financing. Did they think they could just snap their fingers and do away with this? It appears so to me. I'm sure that if they approached this issue realistically with the same commitment that they have approached everything else that they would be able to find a way to make it work. If not, it's not worth staying here for most pilots, especially the ones over 50. By the way, the government is not allowing a "distressed termination" of this plan because they feel that management hasn't tried hard enough to keep it afloat, and they feel that the company can somehow fund it. That's the ONLY reason they would not allow it.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/21/2003 2:56:14 PM pitguy wrote:
[P]Oh! Every one is just dying to hire older unemployed pilots. We have all given tons here and no one would have came here knowing what we know now. I suggest to start or continue to look for new employment. The economy is still falling and the revenue projections from even one month ago are no longer valid. No one can predict this mess or were it is heading. I think that after you give back your pension then you still will be making a very good living. I doubt if you find any solidarity from any of the other labor groups which I am sure you can understand. Best of luck with your current issue, but please don't kid yourself.[BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Just because YOU have nothing to fall back doesn't mean that others don't as well. I, as well as other pilots, have other sources of income. I probably made more last year part-time at another of my "interests" as I did at this airline, so don't tell me that I have an unrealistic view of the world. There are thousands of businesses, people, agencies that would LOVE to hire older individuals with proven records of management and responsibility. Part of the reason "older" pilots are compensated higher than "junior" ones is that experience in this field is a VERY marketable asset. I've done just about everything in commercial aviation- serviced, repaired,catered, loaded bags, etc. Many pilots have similar backgrounds. You can be just as negative as you want towards the pilots; I don't care. I will tell you that this issue WILL cause the demise of US Airways unless management finds a way to fund the ALPA retirement. PERIOD! END OF DISCUSSION!