Pilot Pension Issue - Just the Facts

[ClueByFour]

[blockquote]
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On 1/20/2003 12:53:19 PM us10 wrote:

I think I read somewhere on this board the definition of overpaid as someone who makes a dollar more than me.Chip is asking you to walk in his shoes which to you probably looks pretty good right now.Many of our fellow employees are on the street paying the ultimate price. Many that are left with a job are having to make major adjustments to their finances to avoid their own personal BK.I think it's asking way to much to expect non pilot employees to see this from a pilots viewpoint.Therefore, as a pilot I am requesting that you not even try.This is a pilot issue and we will attempt to deal with it on our own.

My best to you!
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[/blockquote]

If that's the case, it would be a good idea to ask Chip to stop pointing out how the pilots are %10 of the company but took the brunt of the concessions--after all, that's a "pilot" problem, right?

Or why then do some pilots (or according to Chip, some pilots) want the IAM and AFA to give some more as well. I mean, it's a "pilot" problem, right?

By grumbling about liquidating the company, the pilot group is specifically hoping/counting/making threats toward every other group on the property so that managament will capitulate. Hardly keeping it a "pilot" problem, then eh?

The biggest problem the pilots have, quite honestly, is trying to justify to folks who just got whacked from 50k to 30k how hard it is to get a haircut from 200k to 100k. It's a PR nightmare, and it's a tactic which really should be moved away from. It's not a matter of class envy, as much as it is someone used to a champagne budget complaining to a guy struggling to afford a case of Iron City how hard life is and how much sacrafice and yadda yadda yadda....

 

[wings396]

Chip had his nose everywhere it could go in this company. Telling the CWA & IAM to do what is best for all. He wasn't walking in our shoes at the time was he???? Now that shoe is on his foot it is starting to hurt a bit. I did't notice any other pilots telling him to pipe down and keep to himself on our issues. So from what I gatherd Chip was the pilots spokesman. Now that he and his pals are in the hot seat you want to come to his rescue. I don't buy it and I doubt anyone else will either. Chip is now going to feel the pain that we have already been dealt.

 

[lindy]

Chip,[BR][BR]You have made mention several times of how the pilot group has consented to changes to their contractual retirement package. The FAE has been modified, the multiplyer going forward has been changed, etc.etc. The one change that has not taken place, and probably the most important, is the one million lump sum payment in lieu of a monthly retirement check. Most pilots I know who have retired in the last 3-5 years have taken the lump sum. Every financial advisor I know recommends this course of action.[BR][BR]So, Chip, until this lump sum payment problem gets resolved, I don't see how ALPA is giving Dave much room to maneuver. You can portray this any way you want, with whatever smoke and mirrors are at your disposal. However, as you have stated so eloquently many times before, if we go Chapter 7, nobody gets nothin.

 

[pitguy]

I know mechanics at work who's kids qualify for the "free lunch" program at public school. Life is getting tougher everyday on less money. Hopefully we can all pull through this.

 

[smallstFSA]

The bottom line is that AlPA members have more to loose than any other labor group. If the company goes under fleet service can probably recoup 50% to 75% of their salary, pilots would probably be lucky to reach 50% unless they change careers. Chapter 11 and an economic downturn sucked all the power the unions had including ALPA, and if its members don't like how they are being treated either quit or go on strike...life will go on.

 

[exagony]

[blockquote]
I know mechanics at work who's kids qualify for the "free lunch" program at public school. I doubt if that is true for any of the elite pilots, but then again I doubt if they offer that at private schools.



I know of alot of pilots for airlines that do qualify for food stamps.

For all the anti pension for pilots people - pilots are highly trained professionals as are mechanics - bag slingers , FA's and computer punchers are not. This is not flamebait but the truth. Pilots are paid all their money for the event that noone wants to happen - another Sioux City accident or the like. Don't you agree that this crew deserve all their money- if you don't I'd bet the 170+ survivors would disagree with you. Pilots are the ones who strap on the aircraft - there is a possiblity that they could be killed any day - just look at the CLT incident. I don't think you can say the same for most positions on the ramp and definetly can't be said for those in RES. Pilots are the ones who SAFELY get you through the bad storms and weather enroute to your destination. Pilots are paid for when the sh** HITS THE FAN. Mechanics make the aircraft safe for the public to get to their destination. Between pilots and mechanics they invest many years and many thousands of dollars to get where they are - you can't say the same for flight attendents, rampers, etc. (again no flame bait -just the facts.) All of these positions - while important - can be replaced with relative ease - pilots and mechanics - save the current industry situation- cannot. If anyone deserves to retain their pensions it should be the pilots and the mechanics.

 

[autofixer]

"elite" pilots? I always thought that the anti-pilot movement is one of people with low self esteem. It is now obvious.

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 1/20/2003 4:23:46 PM exagony wrote:

[blockquote]
I know mechanics at work who's kids qualify for the "free lunch" program at public school. I doubt if that is true for any of the elite pilots, but then again I doubt if they offer that at private schools.



I know of alot of pilots for airlines that do qualify for food stamps.

For all the anti pension for pilots people - pilots are highly trained professionals as are mechanics - bag slingers , FA's and computer punchers are not. This is not flamebait but the truth. Pilots are paid all their money for the event that noone wants to happen - another Sioux City accident or the like. Don't you agree that this crew deserve all their money- if you don't I'd bet the 170+ survivors would disagree with you. Pilots are the ones who strap on the aircraft - there is a possiblity that they could be killed any day - just look at the CLT incident. I don't think you can say the same for most positions on the ramp and definetly can't be said for those in RES. Pilots are the ones who SAFELY get you through the bad storms and weather enroute to your destination. Pilots are paid for when the sh** HITS THE FAN. Mechanics make the aircraft safe for the public to get to their destination. Between pilots and mechanics they invest many years and many thousands of dollars to get where they are - you can't say the same for flight attendents, rampers, etc. (again no flame bait -just the facts.) All of these positions - while important - can be replaced with relative ease - pilots and mechanics - save the current industry situation- cannot. If anyone deserves to retain their pensions it should be the pilots and the mechanics.
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[/blockquote]


I don't think the quarrel is over pilots deserving more money (and lots of it) and a commensurate pension. The quarrel is why should some have a pension while others have none.

As a ramp rat, I fully support the pilots being paid the prevailing wage and pension plan. Of course, I insist on the same treatment for myself, as well.

 

[us10]

It's pathetic , we've been reduced to fighting over the scraps.The company says they can't afford all future pension obligations so the pilots pension must go. This is the type of thing that can further divide the employees but I think we should resist the impulse to blame each other .If this company is to survive we can never forget the real "enemy" is our competition.We're going to have to pull together as a team and fight the good fight to regain our position in this industry.

I will not be further reduced to blaming other employee groups for the pilots' pension problem.All I ask is,don't blame the pilots for standing firm as we seek to save our retirement.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Chip,

From the beginning I recognized our new management as simply that "new management". The image changed, and the word changed. The image of Wolf was forgotton and the word "labor friendly" was plastered on the foreheads.

It was even packaged and sold by union men and women who weren't wise enough to have their eyes open, because they were too worried about the dues-checkoff which could be lost in an abrogation. I believed it was all done to manufacture consent and now it has manifested itself.

But I wouldn't expect management to act any other way, after all, it's all about business to them. It's a beaten path and should have been easy to see. So, in a way, I find it odd that ALPA would feel betrayed by management. Doesn't the phrase "labor friendly management" violates the logical principle of non-contradiction?

At any rate, it seems to me that it would be treason against ALPA members if the ALPA leadership accepted any lessor pension while at the same time management is allowed to keep theirs [along with their new stock]. I for one would support ALPA's position against giving their pension away. And other employees need to take heed because the possibilities of new concessions aren't a long way from home

On a separate matter, it was sad to see the list of those who didn't file objections to the company ditching all the employee stock. I saw the list of some employees who filed but no union.

Regards,

Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman 1487

 

[ual06]

Perhaps take a look at the site below and run some numbers. (copy and paste)

http://www.rsa.state.al.us/WebCalc/calc2.asp

 

[pitguy]

I wonder why some mechanics have 'never' forgotten about the pilots crossing their picket line in 1992. Do you think they 'still' don't trust them?

--REMEMBER TO LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY. You can get your pension back later.

--Let's put this last hurdle behind us and bring this company back to what we all deserve.


"""REMEMBER TO LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY"""

 

[sdavis29]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 7:36:05 PM us10 wrote:
[P][BR]It's pathetic , we've been reduced to fighting over the scraps.The company says they can't afford all future pension obligations so the pilots pension must go. This is the type of thing that can further divide the employees but I think we should resist the impulse to blame each other .If this company is to survive we can never forget the real "enemy" is our competition.We're going to have to pull together as a team and fight the good fight to regain our position in this industry.[BR][BR]I will not be further reduced to blaming other employee groups for the pilots' pension problem.All I ask is,don't blame the pilots for standing firm as we seek to save our retirement.[BR][BR][BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]US10,[BR]I DONT THINK ANY ONE IS BEGRUDGING YOU TRYING TO SAVE YOUR PENSION....[BR]I THINK THE PROBLEM IS MANY WERE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR JOBS, BUT IS WAS OK THEN TO GIVE WHAT WAS NEEDED TO BE GIVEN SO THE MAJORITY COULD SURVIVE...[BR]THE MAJORITY DID GIVE AND NOW A 10% MINORITY SEEMS TO HOLD THE CARDS.[BR] I AGREE WITH YOU ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AS FAR A BASHING GOES, BUT IN ALL FAIRNESS YOU HAVE TO RESPECT THE OTHER 90% VIEW..[BR] ENOUGH ON THIS.....AND GL[BR][BR][BR][BR] [BR][/P]

 

[MrAeroMan]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 10:32:54 AM chipmunn wrote: [BR][BR]The average pilot pay and benefit cut is $138,000 per year. ALPA President Duane Woerth told the Senate Appropriations Committee on January 14 the average pilot concession represents 46 percent of a pilot’s total pay and benefits. [BR][BR][BR]Chip [BR]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]So what you're saying is the average compensation in pay and benefits for an average U pilot is $300,000.00 samolians in pre-contract dollars? Please correct me if this is wrong but my math says I'm right. That's a lot of cabbage my friend! I don't begrudge anyone the going rate by any means but I must say it's easier to get by on the fruit the pilots make than what the agent scale is.

 

[Jme]

Chip!

With all due respect. I have been reading these message boards for quite some time now. I, as many, am usually a reader and not a " poster " per say. You have been, for the most part, very informative in the past but I must say the last bit you posted really tugged at my hart strings (sarcasm). You are telling everyone here that the average Pilot pay cut "46%" is represented by the $$ figure of $138000 on average. Hummmm so in other words the average pilot


Continues


to make approximetly $140000 in pay and benefits for working 80 hours per month. Keeping in mind that Pilots represent 30% of the payroll??? Correct me if I am wrong. Now that other groups like the Customer Service workers and the likes, because they represent 70% of the payroll, some of whom can barely support their families and continue to work here because of their dedication and love of the job. Cuse it aint the money we here for!! I don't think we are comparing apples to apples my friend! If I had to take a pay cut of 46% and still came of the deal making even $100000 I would be pretty happy. It is all relative!! However, there is a cutoff point. It is obviously much easier to live and support a family on $140000 than $20000.

It gets very frustrating to read all this stuff on this board that is made up of "turds" or c r a p when you have a great group of employees who just want to do their job, keep their job and get along. This is a difficult time for everyone! Pilots, Mechanics, FAs, Customer Service, etc.... We are in this together and we will persevere together. This is the only way we will survive! Together. In our jobs we rely heavily on one another. Not one group can do it without the other!

You say that ALPA is pragmatic? I have to sometimes wonder. How pragmatic is ALPA's answer to this question. Some pension is better than no pension. More importantly.... Will they cut off their nose to spite their face??