Edward
Veteran
Here is the new thread. Please stay on topic & do not make it personal as that is time off.
Pilot labor thread week 4/27-5/3
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NiceLandingCaptain
Senior
- Jul 22, 2007
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I'm just curious how much badmouthing of ALPA there was at the old, now defunct, US Airways when the pilots there signed that "parity plus one" contract?
Second question: And does this new Association, with its 55% tyrranic majority expect to negotiate a similar, industry leading contract for its constitiuents? If so, how do they propose to do this? What olive branch will be offered to the pilots of the west - the ones the east intends to walk all over? I have yet to hear of Plan A - let alone Plan B.
Oh, I forgot. USAPA doesn't need a Plan B.
Second question: And does this new Association, with its 55% tyrranic majority expect to negotiate a similar, industry leading contract for its constitiuents? If so, how do they propose to do this? What olive branch will be offered to the pilots of the west - the ones the east intends to walk all over? I have yet to hear of Plan A - let alone Plan B.
Oh, I forgot. USAPA doesn't need a Plan B.
Schultz
Member
- Apr 24, 2008
- 79
- 40
Would that be the same council that briefed that USAPA didn't have a chance. As I said before time will tell, time will tell.
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
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prechilill said:
I could not have said it better myself. To them their whole world is upside down. Their mantra is - the world has been unfair to me - it's not my fault - they owe me... It never occurs to them that the problem is staring them back in the mirror. Who was it that said, "No one is more outraged at being stolen from then the thief himself."
oldiebutgoody said:
Same old response. You live your life in the past. That's the problem. Everyone must suffer what you have endured to be as righteous as you, right? It's impossible for anyone to do any better than you have, because if you accept that they can, you must admit that your past was a failure of your own doing, and you in fact are not a victim of circumstance. And that would be a terminal blow to your ego. So regardless of evidence to the contrary, you stubbornly stick to your old perceptions and never let go. This is exactly how abusive people are able to look at themselves in the mirror every day. As I said previously, no one is interested in repeating your mistakes. You will see for yourself as time unfolds.
Note the following quote from this article.
"The biggest obstacle to a deal, said someone familiar with talks, remains Continental executives' reservations about the disruption that integrating operations with United might bring to customer service and employee relations.
Otherwise, talks between the carriers and their pilots unions have progressed smoothly."
or this...
"A tie-up with US Airways would draw serious opposition from United's unions, which don't want to get drawn into the labor wars of the Arizona-based carrier,"
Think and say what you want. Live in denial if you choose. The fact remains that consummating a deal between US and anyone else will be an almost insurmountable task. DL, CO, UA, AA... none of the pilots groups want to be associated with you. This is not some mysterious conspiracy against you as you want to believe. It is very simply a consequence of the way your group has acted since 2000.
E
EastUS
Guest
Incurable naivete affords no one any, even slight semblance, of an enlightened or knowledgeable state of mind...as some would have others imagine. Enough said.
Bus Driver
Member
- Sep 21, 2004
- 60
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luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
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I think America West tried to vote out ALPO years back, not sure of exactly when, and I think it almost went over.
NiceLandingCaptain
Senior
- Jul 22, 2007
- 406
- 0
Thank you for showing some respect. Although something tells me you don't really mean it.
You blame all your woes on ALPA, and yet, you have written the words that I have bold-ed in your post. So what is it that really caused all the east's woes? The perfect storm or ALPA. Something tells me that ALPA didn't park all of those DC-9's, MD-80's, 737-200's, and even a couple 767's out in the desert.
You have simply taken the easy way out, unable to face the real reason for your former employer's demise. Now you think you can get what you once had by taking it from someone else.
That's righteousness, for sure.
To answer your question, the west pilots will not join usapa - ever. What you have done is the same thing the chickens who ran to Canada in the '60's and '70's did to avoid the draft. Except now you are running from something called the Nicolau. And the first time anyone from the east takes the job of a Westie, the whole industry will be calling you - and will treat you like - what you truely are.
Now its my turn to show a little respect: you won fair and square on the NMB vote. We lost the vote, but not our spirit and resolve. So good on ya......we all hope you receive what you deserve.
But what a hollow victory.....and perhaps even short lived.
NLC
E
EastUS
Guest
Frankly, that's entirely your loss then. Take what the future brings without your voices being heard then. Play Blanche Dubois instead = "I've always depended upon the kindess of strangers", and note that said strangers in this case are the evil-easties that you so enthusiastically insult, oppose, and seek to sabotoge at every level.
From the start of the Nic fiasco; I essentially held the stated positon of "Hey guys/gals...this Nic thing isnt' going to work out..can we talk? Umm..perhaps some fences?/etc". The brilliant minds out in your turf saw no reason to respond with anything other than such gems as "Booshaka!,Final and Binding!, It's OVER!!" and so many pathetic variations on "Nyaah, Nyaah!" that I long ago lost count...or the slightest actual concern with. That ANY west pilot can even actually strike their keyboard so as to construct the word "righteous" is positive proof of homo sapien's astonishing ability to self-delude. Do please give us ALL the properly "Righteous Position" explanations for "Ho Ho Ho! St Nic is coming to town!" "You know whay I HATE you guys!!?..when this merger happened ...I was 60 numbers from being a 757 captain!!" (PHX road show)...or my all time favorite = "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!".
Despite the west's own earlier efforts at dismissing Alpa; your group's since chosen to wear horse blinders as to what thinking existed out east along such lines, and instead, irrationally cry out that USAPA's inception was entirely a result of Nic. It wasn't. MANY of us have despised Alpa for YEARS out here...fantasize otherwise if you will.
Speaking of Alpa: Alpa's little gift from St Nic has completely torn the east and west apart, and no end to that sorry condition seems within reasonable projection at this time, at least, based upon west postings here, and behavior elsewhere. So be it then. Don't, even for a second, imagine that you would be doing the east pilots any great favors by actively confronting our wishes within USAPA, and then being able to argue as vehemently as you wish about most anything. I see no tactical east gains to be had from seeking your participation..none, zip, zero. I believe, from principles, that common sense and democratic notions dictate wishing to see you included in any/all discussion and decision making.
However ridiculous it now looks; an eventually, at least slightly cohesive pilot group cannot be seen as other than ideal. Do what you feel best. Best of luck to you should all out there continue to "depend upon the kindness of strangers".
L
luvn737s
Guest
The west will dedicate all their efforts into the legal means necessary to hasten USAPA's eventual implosion. To that end, and as a matter of pride and character, they will not profess allegiance to a union with one fork of the tongue and work towards it's demise with the other. I would doubt anyone on the east side would understand such character issues.
That's the crux of the problem. You needed to state those positions during mediation. The moose out front shoulda told ya.
Do you know anything of the history of the wests's beef with ALPA? Would you be willing to learn?
Nic: the decsion that came from a mutually agreed-to participation, that was crafted from one hard-line indefensible stance and one reasonable stance, was one step of a journey that AAA ALPA chose to take. It chose to paint themselves into a corner during mediation and no USAPA hew and cry came up pleading with them to alter their course. If AAA ALPA had been replaced a year or two prior to the merger by USAPA, would their stance have been any different than AAA ALPA's was? Of course not. They would have gone down the AL/MK path which would not have gotten the east their coveted DOH list either.
What has torn the west and east apart has been the east's refusal to accept the results of binding arbitration and trying to change the rules after the game has ended in order to affect the outcome. Had Nicolau come out and been implemented as part of a joint contract, the unity that will forever elude US would be complemented by a significantly better contract than either side can expect for the foreseeable future.
That's the crux of the problem. You needed to state those positions during mediation. The moose out front shoulda told ya.
Do you know anything of the history of the wests's beef with ALPA? Would you be willing to learn?
Nic: the decsion that came from a mutually agreed-to participation, that was crafted from one hard-line indefensible stance and one reasonable stance, was one step of a journey that AAA ALPA chose to take. It chose to paint themselves into a corner during mediation and no USAPA hew and cry came up pleading with them to alter their course. If AAA ALPA had been replaced a year or two prior to the merger by USAPA, would their stance have been any different than AAA ALPA's was? Of course not. They would have gone down the AL/MK path which would not have gotten the east their coveted DOH list either.
What has torn the west and east apart has been the east's refusal to accept the results of binding arbitration and trying to change the rules after the game has ended in order to affect the outcome. Had Nicolau come out and been implemented as part of a joint contract, the unity that will forever elude US would be complemented by a significantly better contract than either side can expect for the foreseeable future.
prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
- 3,406
"The moose out front should of told ya" 
Classic comment!
Well, USAP's days are numbered. At first I thought they would die a legal death, replete with law suits not only from the west but also the empire and shuttle pilots (both non-DOH mergers). Since Bradford can't think much as seen with the numerous holes in this botched transition of representation, it is a shame the United pilots are going to steal the best scene of east pilots resecting their cartilage appendage superior to the philtrum to spite their superficial epiermal layer extending from their frontal process inferiorly to their mental prominence. Oh well.
Classic comment! Well, USAP's days are numbered. At first I thought they would die a legal death, replete with law suits not only from the west but also the empire and shuttle pilots (both non-DOH mergers). Since Bradford can't think much as seen with the numerous holes in this botched transition of representation, it is a shame the United pilots are going to steal the best scene of east pilots resecting their cartilage appendage superior to the philtrum to spite their superficial epiermal layer extending from their frontal process inferiorly to their mental prominence. Oh well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYT...
April 28, 2008
Continental Abandons Merger Talks With United
By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN and MICHELINE MAYNARD
Continental Airlines said Sunday that it had abandoned merger talks with United Airlines and was planning to remain an independent carrier, a blow to lengthy efforts by United to find a merger partner.
Continental’s decision, announced by the airline Sunday afternoon, will change the complex game of musical chairs that the airline industry is playing after the merger announcement last week by Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines.
Continental’s move was a stunning development for United’s parent, UAL, which had been negotiating in expectation of reaching a deal by late this week. As recently as Friday, it looked as though Continental, based in Houston, and United, based outside Chicago, were on the way to reaching a merger agreement.
Continental decided to drop the discussions after UAL announced worse-than-expected earnings, which sent shares falling last week. On Tuesday, United said it lost $537 million during the first quarter, on sharply higher costs for jet fuel. The airline, which spent more than three years under bankruptcy protection earlier this decade, said it would cut flights and eliminate a further 1,000 jobs.
Directors at Continental, who met Sunday afternoon, feared that a merger with United could put their company in peril. Continental, which had been expected to take management responsibilities in a deal with United, survived two bankruptcy filings of its own in the 1980s and 1990s, and has been considered one of the industry’s best-run carriers.
With the United-Continental deal scrapped, a new set of pairings is likely to take place. UAL is expected to push to reach a deal with US Airways, with which it had also been discussing a merger, people involved in the talks said. UAL could not be reached for comment.
Meanwhile, Continental is expected to press ahead with preliminary talks to create a three-way alliance — short of a full merger — with American Airlines and British Airways.
In a letter to Continental employees, Lawrence W. Kellner, the airline’s chief executive, and Jeffery A. Smisek, its president, wrote: “The board very carefully considered all the risks and benefits of a merger with another airline, and determined that the risks of a merger at this time outweigh the potential rewards, as compared to Continental’s prospects on a stand-alone basis.â€
They said they worried a deal would put company’s operational and financial strengths “at risk.†They also hinted at forming a new alliance, saying, “We are considering alternatives to SkyTeam†— an alliance with Delta and Northwest — “as we carefully evaluate which major global alliance will be best for Continental over the long term.â€
The executives did not mention American or British Airways.
The two sides had agreed on several issues in their talks. Mr. Kellner would have run the combined company, while United’s chief executive, Glenn F. Tilton, would have stepped away from day-to-day operations.
Mr. Tilton had advocated strongly for industry consolidation, saying it was the only solution to help the struggling airlines become consistently profitable. US Airways’ chief executive, W. Douglas Parker, has also pushed for consolidation, making an unsuccessful hostile bid last year for Delta before it emerged from bankruptcy protection.
Mr. Kellner, in his letter, at least seemed sympathetic to the industry’s plight, telling employees, “Every U.S. carrier, including Continental, is under enormous pressure from record high fuel prices, a slowing U.S. economy and a weak dollar.â€
United’s stock closed at $21.43 on Monday. That evening, Delta and Northwest announced their merger plans. On Tuesday, United’s shares closed below $14. They ended the week at $15.21, off 29 percent for the week.
On Tuesday, United’s chief financial officer, Frederic F. Brace, said repeatedly that the airline was in compliance with the covenants of its bank agreements. But, Mr. Brace added, “With the recent spike in fuel prices and the softening economy the trajectory of our covenant coverage is downward.â€
Because of steps the airline was taking to cut costs, he said, “it’s really very difficult to predict whether we will have an issue or not.â€
On Wednesday, after the sharp drop in its stock, United issued a statement saying that it was in compliance with the terms of deals governing its credit arrangements with banks, including JPMorgan Chase, Citibank and Credit Suisse.
Analysts said the situation created doubt about United’s health, an issue that has hovered around United since it emerged from bankruptcy protection in early 2006. That concern was a reason talks between Delta and United, which took place while Delta was under bankruptcy protection earlier this decade, never gained traction.
Meanwhile, Continental’s next steps are far from clear. Although it planned to pursue discussions with American about joining its alliance with British Airways, the corporate cultures of Continental and American differ significantly. American, as the nation’s biggest airline until the Delta-Northwest deal is completed, is likely to want to dictate the terms under which the much-smaller Continental comes on board.
At the same time, Continental’s membership in the SkyTeam alliance could offer much greater reach than a deal with American and British Airways. The new Delta will be bigger than American, and other members in SkyTeam include KLM and Air France, which have a broader base than American and British Airways across Europe and the rest of the world.
Meanwhile, in a further sign of the industry's problems, Eos Airlines, a business-class carrier, said Sunday that it had filed bankrupcy protection and ceased flying. Eos said it filed for Chapter 11 protection in New York on Saturday. Eos offered business class flights between New York's JFK Airport and Stanstead Airport in London. It was the latest in a series of small airlines to file for bankruptcy protection in the last few weeks.
Eos made its final flights from London to New York on Sunday, and canceled flights in the opposite direction. It began flying in 2005.
NYT...
April 28, 2008
Continental Abandons Merger Talks With United
By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN and MICHELINE MAYNARD
Continental Airlines said Sunday that it had abandoned merger talks with United Airlines and was planning to remain an independent carrier, a blow to lengthy efforts by United to find a merger partner.
Continental’s decision, announced by the airline Sunday afternoon, will change the complex game of musical chairs that the airline industry is playing after the merger announcement last week by Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines.
Continental’s move was a stunning development for United’s parent, UAL, which had been negotiating in expectation of reaching a deal by late this week. As recently as Friday, it looked as though Continental, based in Houston, and United, based outside Chicago, were on the way to reaching a merger agreement.
Continental decided to drop the discussions after UAL announced worse-than-expected earnings, which sent shares falling last week. On Tuesday, United said it lost $537 million during the first quarter, on sharply higher costs for jet fuel. The airline, which spent more than three years under bankruptcy protection earlier this decade, said it would cut flights and eliminate a further 1,000 jobs.
Directors at Continental, who met Sunday afternoon, feared that a merger with United could put their company in peril. Continental, which had been expected to take management responsibilities in a deal with United, survived two bankruptcy filings of its own in the 1980s and 1990s, and has been considered one of the industry’s best-run carriers.
With the United-Continental deal scrapped, a new set of pairings is likely to take place. UAL is expected to push to reach a deal with US Airways, with which it had also been discussing a merger, people involved in the talks said. UAL could not be reached for comment.
Meanwhile, Continental is expected to press ahead with preliminary talks to create a three-way alliance — short of a full merger — with American Airlines and British Airways.
In a letter to Continental employees, Lawrence W. Kellner, the airline’s chief executive, and Jeffery A. Smisek, its president, wrote: “The board very carefully considered all the risks and benefits of a merger with another airline, and determined that the risks of a merger at this time outweigh the potential rewards, as compared to Continental’s prospects on a stand-alone basis.â€
They said they worried a deal would put company’s operational and financial strengths “at risk.†They also hinted at forming a new alliance, saying, “We are considering alternatives to SkyTeam†— an alliance with Delta and Northwest — “as we carefully evaluate which major global alliance will be best for Continental over the long term.â€
The executives did not mention American or British Airways.
The two sides had agreed on several issues in their talks. Mr. Kellner would have run the combined company, while United’s chief executive, Glenn F. Tilton, would have stepped away from day-to-day operations.
Mr. Tilton had advocated strongly for industry consolidation, saying it was the only solution to help the struggling airlines become consistently profitable. US Airways’ chief executive, W. Douglas Parker, has also pushed for consolidation, making an unsuccessful hostile bid last year for Delta before it emerged from bankruptcy protection.
Mr. Kellner, in his letter, at least seemed sympathetic to the industry’s plight, telling employees, “Every U.S. carrier, including Continental, is under enormous pressure from record high fuel prices, a slowing U.S. economy and a weak dollar.â€
United’s stock closed at $21.43 on Monday. That evening, Delta and Northwest announced their merger plans. On Tuesday, United’s shares closed below $14. They ended the week at $15.21, off 29 percent for the week.
On Tuesday, United’s chief financial officer, Frederic F. Brace, said repeatedly that the airline was in compliance with the covenants of its bank agreements. But, Mr. Brace added, “With the recent spike in fuel prices and the softening economy the trajectory of our covenant coverage is downward.â€
Because of steps the airline was taking to cut costs, he said, “it’s really very difficult to predict whether we will have an issue or not.â€
On Wednesday, after the sharp drop in its stock, United issued a statement saying that it was in compliance with the terms of deals governing its credit arrangements with banks, including JPMorgan Chase, Citibank and Credit Suisse.
Analysts said the situation created doubt about United’s health, an issue that has hovered around United since it emerged from bankruptcy protection in early 2006. That concern was a reason talks between Delta and United, which took place while Delta was under bankruptcy protection earlier this decade, never gained traction.
Meanwhile, Continental’s next steps are far from clear. Although it planned to pursue discussions with American about joining its alliance with British Airways, the corporate cultures of Continental and American differ significantly. American, as the nation’s biggest airline until the Delta-Northwest deal is completed, is likely to want to dictate the terms under which the much-smaller Continental comes on board.
At the same time, Continental’s membership in the SkyTeam alliance could offer much greater reach than a deal with American and British Airways. The new Delta will be bigger than American, and other members in SkyTeam include KLM and Air France, which have a broader base than American and British Airways across Europe and the rest of the world.
Meanwhile, in a further sign of the industry's problems, Eos Airlines, a business-class carrier, said Sunday that it had filed bankrupcy protection and ceased flying. Eos said it filed for Chapter 11 protection in New York on Saturday. Eos offered business class flights between New York's JFK Airport and Stanstead Airport in London. It was the latest in a series of small airlines to file for bankruptcy protection in the last few weeks.
Eos made its final flights from London to New York on Sunday, and canceled flights in the opposite direction. It began flying in 2005.
Pacemaker
Senior
- Sep 3, 2002
- 475
- 0
I believe 767jetz is on target. No one wanted to deal with the east group before the AWA merger; their actions since then have rendered any merger involving them essentially impossible. The only way the UAL pilots would stomach a US/UA deal would be to demand a prenup so onerous to the US-east group that nuclear war would ensue. Should UAL management disregard this and cram the deal down their throats anyway, the nuclear war would be instituted by the UAL group.
I am not a UAL pilot; I could be misreading the situation. Perhaps 767jetz has a better sense of the UAL pilots' feelings about the US-east pilot group.
I am not a UAL pilot; I could be misreading the situation. Perhaps 767jetz has a better sense of the UAL pilots' feelings about the US-east pilot group.
prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
- 3,406
A smart fellow named George Nicolau neutered the east pilot group-- what they say or threaten to do at this point is of little consequence, especially with an ALPA super majority on the property with AWA + UAL. USAPs are done.
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