Pilot labor thread 5/4-5/10

[nostradamus]

Junebug quote below;


Junebug172
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Posted on: Jul 13 2007, 08:52 PM


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Please stop with this decertification threat. The only thing you guys in the east have been able to do collectively is vote in LOA 93.

You will never, ever decertify ALPA.

Guaranteed.

 

[EastUS]

It did not comply with ALPA policy

Yes it did. Both National and the company accepted it.

... federal judge is already leaning towards finding the list Nicolau used as being incorrect.

Who? Judge Gershon? Total BS. You guys seem to bite at anything your leadership tells you.

we have been resisting for years a dysfunctional MEC, but ALPA is structured to keep those in power in power and to disempower the line pilot.

More BS. You guys could have recalled them at any point but were led around like sheep by your PHL reps telling you what you wanted to hear. Not one of your reps had the stones to tell you DOH was DOA and they purposefully kept transcripts of the arbitration away from your pilots.

Even our totally moronic MEC decided to file suit in an inappropriate venue against the AWA MEC as a red herring to distract us until it was too late to do anything about it.

Amazing how we in the west were briefed on how baseless the suit was yet no one it the east seemed to be able to see through it "until it was too late to do anything about it."

"It did not comply with ALPA policy"

"Yes it did. Both National and the company accepted it." Whatever else can be said, assumed, stated, or postured and posted regarding that "policy".; It's sure "helped" all of us here a whole heckuva' lot...hasn't it?


"You guys could have recalled them at any point but were led around like sheep..." Standard Alpoid hype..and utterly without substance in reality. Kindly, just note how effective intended recall proved with the CLT LEC....as in; the wishes of the pilots were completely ignored, and the issue wasn't even set on calender by good old Alpa's finest. your point's well taken as far as active participation in Union affairs being a very reasonable notion. It's a pity that you'e no such thoughts concerning your current union though.....interesting philosophy.


"Amazing how we in the west were briefed on how baseless the suit was.." Well "Duh!"...that was, I believe, the poster's intended point = The suit was just an obvious Alpoid-attempted smoke-screen, initiated to confuse and baffle the "poor, stupid east line pilots" into hopefully, actually believing that Alpa was doing..well... ANYTHING usefull...no surprise that even your circle eventually figured that one out...apparently, only after being properly "briefed" of course :blink: ...."yet no one it the east seemed to be able to see through it".Ummm...sure...if you say so. In truth..it was fine meat for commonly found anti-alpa discussion, in that it WAS such an obvious scam. Alpa was clearly just playing for time, and desperately attempting to hold on to the pilot dues money from all of us. Why Alpa's anythng "heroic" out west is a complete mystery to a great many.

That Nic/"Totally Fair" - "No Windfall" must have some serious power to cloud minds, dull perceptions, and generally serve to produce little in the way of reasoned thought. It's powerful magic apparently even goes so far as to completely remove any associations with actual reality. Case in point from the above posting = "Please stop with this decertification threat. The only thing you guys in the east have been able to do collectively is vote in LOA 93."

"You will never, ever decertify ALPA. Guaranteed." Well..ya' can't blame us for "trying" Seriously though: "never, ever" is a long time, and I'd caution against "ever" making any blanket assumptions as to what's to be seen and experienced, within even the tiniest fractions of future time.

 

[EastUS]

And I
I've always said politics should be kept out of the jumpseat. Hopefully this foolishness will pass.

Fully agreed.

 

[luv2fly]

You're right about that!! Good point.

In your opinion, if USAPA and the west had the opportunity to renegotiate the SLI, would USAPA advocate strictly DOH, or would it support a relative seniority integration?

 

[Piedmont1984]

In your opinion, if USAPA and the west had the opportunity to renegotiate the SLI, would USAPA advocate strictly DOH, or would it support a relative seniority integration?

The Nicolau award wasn't even relative position, since it stapled a large group of the East pilots to the bottom of the list. Yes, they were furloughed at the moment the snapshot was taken, but they were on the seniority list, and "relative" means "relative" ; many of them had more time in our cockpits (even with the furlough time accounted for) than their West counterparts who were listed above them by Nicolau. Furlough is more like paying harsh dues rather than going on vacation. Those pilots should have been given some credit for their length of service. Nicolau didn't bother to give them squat.

USAPA would propose DOH with conditions, restrictions and fences if necessary. So in practice, it would not function as a strict DOH list. In fact, USAPA's DOH based list may end up functioning more like a "weighted" or "proportional" relative seniority integration - only much more fair and equitable then the Nic.

Thats how I would do it.

 

[luv2fly]

USAPA would propose DOH with conditions, restrictions and fences if necessary.
Thats how I would do it.

If necessary? What conditions or restrictions would help preserve a senior West captain's position when integration is based on DOH? I could see where a fence would protect a current position, but what about displacments such as base closures etc.?
Do you believe career expectations should factor in the SLI in any way and if so, how do you account for that? Very complicated questions no doubt.

 

[Piedmont1984]

If necessary? What conditions or restrictions would help preserve a senior West captain's position when integration is based on DOH?
Do you believe career expectations should factor in the SLI in any way and if so, how do you account for that?

If I were a senior pilot in PHX - a no bump, no flush provision with a fence around PHX which provides me with super seniority in-base would suit me.

With respect to career expectations you said it. How do you account for that? How do you measure or quantify career expectations? Particularly in this industry and in this post 9-11, $120/barrel, climate. My career expectations have never materialized other than my expectation of what will happen next week, provided I have already signed in for my trip.

Prior to the merger did you have any reasonable career expectations of flying widebodies to Paris? With a DOH list, if you are senior in PHX, you can do just that.

 

[luv2fly]

Prior to the merger did you have any reasonable career expectations of flying widebodies to Paris? With a DOH list, if you are senior in PHX, you can do just that.

I see your point, but at the same time, prior to the merge, did a furloughed US pilot have any reasonable expectation of returning to a mainline flying position anytime soon with any relative seniority? Did he/she have any reasonable expectations of making the left seat anytime soon?
Just to clarify, I do not work for US.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I see your point, but at the same time, prior to the merge, did a furloughed US pilot have any reasonable expectation of returning to a mainline flying position anytime soon with any relative seniority? Did he/she have any reasonable expectations of making the left seat anytime soon?
Just to clarify, I do not work for US.

Thats my point. Expectations of any kind are a weak and flawed basis upon which to merge two pilot groups.

 

[ZMAN777]

Thats my point. Expectations of any kind are a weak and flawed basis upon which to merge two pilot groups.

Wrong! Not weak and flawed, just imperfect. But that's the case of most things in life. The bottom line is that there is no way that a pilot who's been furloughed for YEARS should expect to reap the benefits of a merger when he/she had NO REALISTIC expectation of perhaps ever coming back to the line and flying. No way.

And I believe the wording of the McCaskill-Bond amendment of HR 2764 clearly spells that out. The bill acknowledges the imperfection of any seniority integration but went to great lengths to avoid any reference to DOH/LOS due to the inherent windfalls that can award to an otherwise undeserving segment of the one of the workgroups.

Cheers,
Z B)

 

[wopr21]

Thats my point. Expectations of any kind are a weak and flawed basis upon which to merge two pilot groups.

Thats correct. There are no realistic career expectations in this industry. The only thing that is a constant is ..DOH.

This is all we have and should never be taken away

Changing DOH is like changing your birthday.

wopr21

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

5. In that case, how are you going to help? You want things better? So do I. But reality? Not going to happen in the present form. The biggest problem I see is the starting point. With west participation we might start at contract 2000. Without the west it might at LOA93. I have asked a lot of people this question, which would you prefer?

When does the west get to participate? Seems everyone who has tried to be a representative was rejected because of the loyalty oath. Appears not okay for the east but required for the west.

Trying to figure out why you even want the west to show up, your going to tell us how it's done and the way it's going to be, that majority issue you hold over our heads all the time. King of the castle, right Azamat.

I guess your going to bargin the west some 'conditions and restrictions' like yesterday's crew meals.

Just out of curiosity how do you know what the pilot group wants in a contract? I would assume all the old data is tainted due to group that collected it. Have you polled the group already find out what the wants and needs are?

 

[wopr21]

Thats my point. Expectations of any kind are a weak and flawed basis upon which to merge two pilot groups.

Thats correct. There are no realistic career expectations in this industry. The only thing that is a constant is ..DOH.

This is all we have and should never be taken away

Changing DOH is like changing your birthday.

wopr21

 

[PA18]

Wrong! Not weak and flawed, just imperfect. But that's the case of most things in life. The bottom line is that there is no way that a pilot who's been furloughed for YEARS should expect to reap the benefits of a merger when he/she had NO REALISTIC expectation of perhaps ever coming back to the line and flying. No way.

How about this scenario?

A friend of mine was hired at UAL in 1999, and subsequently furloughed after 9/11.

Should he be placed on a combined list below an AWA pilot who was hired after he was, but has been working continuously, while my friend was furloughed from UAL?

And shouldn't the UAL ALPA Merger Committee be doing everything in its power to prevent that from happening? (Unless the UAL MEC is like the old US East MEC and pilot group as a whole; that is, if it doesn't affect them personally, then my friend goes right under the bus.)

I'm not trying to start anything here. I'm just very curious as to how others on this board feel that situation should be addressed.

 

[PA18]

Thats correct. There are no realistic career expectations in this industry. The only thing that is a constant is ..DOH.

This is all we have and should never be taken away

wopr21

...unless you're a former Empire or Shuttle pilot.