Pilot labor thread 5/4-5/10

[tazz]

Then you won't have any standing to complain about. Sad, but it will make things easier.

I think you would be surprised depending on the issues. But that's me. There is no tyranny, that's your description. Therefore without your participation, I guess you will be satisfied with the outcome.

Your response makes absolutely no sense.

 

[EastUS]

I say shut the thread down for a month...it's ridiculous.

Before that happens, I just heard that a West FO was terminated for verbally attacking an East pilot at a gate...I don't know if this is old news, can anyone confirm this?

If such happened...it's a tragic, and essentially insane event. I'd hate to see anyone ever lose their livliehood over a moment's indiscretion/flare-up. Regardless of that; It's incumbent on all of us to treat each other with at least the proper amount of professional courtesy due each other, most certainly within public view in actual operations/aircraft/airports/hotels/vans/etc. To do otherwise diminishes ALL of us.

 

[sagurao]

"i fail to see what is so unreasonable with having the seniority to hold EXACTLY what you had pre-merger be it a capt seat an fo seat or a seat on you couch at home hoping to get recalled one day." OK. Let's go with that for even a moment. UA's considering fleet reductions of an unknown total amount. I believe they've posted approx 30 aircraft likely to be parked thus far. Does anyone present imagine that the entire UA group would happily, and instantly agree that any people, potentially furloughed from fleet reductions, should then become permanently placed below your entire west group?..not to mention the east group as well?....due to some magical "Snapshot in Time?...that's yet to be taken?

LCC has aircraft on order. Should/Would that properly allow for some absurd gains for any/all of us via "Career Expectations" over the UA group of "Fellow Pilots"? I think NOT, but am all ears to hearing why that wouldn't be fully "reasonable" under the Alpo paradigm...anyone???

Actually yes I do think it would be reasonable. If United parks less than 10% of their fleet and had to sit 10% of the pilots because of their present financial situation then I wouldn't exactly call that a win fall to have them placed below any pilots that were flying the line for us. And if perhaps when the snap shot was taken we also had a certain percentage of pilots on the street I don't see anything wrong with an arbitrator determining how to merge them with their fellow furloughed pilots because they would both be in the same situation at their respective airlines.
P.S. as a side note, no I do not expect any union to be ok with any of their pilots being put on the bottom of a list because unions are like lawyers they are paid to fight tooth and nail for there clients right or wrong... guilty or not guilty. That's their job.

 

[CactusFlyr]

"i fail to see what is so unreasonable with having the seniority to hold EXACTLY what you had pre-merger be it a capt seat an fo seat or a seat on you couch at home hoping to get recalled one day." OK. Let's go with that for even a moment. UA's considering fleet reductions of an unknown total amount. I believe they've posted approx 30 aircraft likely to be parked thus far. Does anyone present imagine that the entire UA group would happily, and instantly agree that any people, potentially furloughed from fleet reductions, should then become permanently placed below your entire west group?..not to mention the east group as well?....due to some magical "Snapshot in Time?...that's yet to be taken?

LCC has aircraft on order. Should/Would that properly allow for some absurd gains for any/all of us via "Career Expectations" over the UA group of "Fellow Pilots"? I think NOT, but am all ears to hearing why that wouldn't be fully "reasonable" under the Alpo paradigm...anyone???

I can't quite get your jist, but career expectations work many ways to include- seat at time, size of aircraft, size of pilot group, etc. So you see it works against United as a whole if they have people on the street but their large amount of widebody aircraft count for something in their favor. Obviously there are many other factors and it is pretty subjective but the only way to keep what you have.

 

[EastUS]

I can't quite get your jist, but career expectations work many ways to include- seat at time, size of aircraft, size of pilot group, etc. So you see it works against United as a whole if they have people on the street but their large amount of widebody aircraft count for something in their favor. Obviously there are many other factors and it is pretty subjective but the only way to keep what you have.

"Obviously there are many other factors and it is pretty subjective but the only way to keep what you have." Well...that certainly seems sufficiently vague..and fully fails to answer the given questions...which serves as an answer in itself, I suppose.

The questions again, are: "Does anyone present imagine that the entire UA group would happily, and instantly agree that any UA people, potentially furloughed from fleet reductions, should then become permanently placed below your entire west group?..not to mention the east group as well?....due to some magical "Snapshot in Time?...that's yet to be taken?

LCC has aircraft on order. Should/Would that properly allow for some absurd gains for any/all of us via "Career Expectations" over the UA group of "Fellow Pilots"? I think NOT, but am all ears to hearing why that wouldn't be fully "reasonable" under the Alpo paradigm...anyone???"

 

[EastUS]

Actually yes I do think it would be reasonable. If United parks less than 10% of their fleet and had to sit 10% of the pilots because of their present financial situation then I wouldn't exactly call that a win fall to have them placed below any pilots that were flying the line for us.

Why am I not surprised? So, in essence; Were UA to furlough even seconds prior to playing "This Magic Moment", meaning a few seconds prior to any whimsically set "snapshot"...then = their effected pilots are hosed for the entire life of your career, and naturally, for your benefit....Yup..makes "sense"..and seems entirely "reasonable" :blink: Whew!...Now THERE'S a sure-fire ticket towards neverending bliss between pilot groups. I wonder what the UA pilot group's "take" is on such thinking? I already know Alpa's = "What?..Me Worry?"

PS: What if Mr. Parker opts for some fleet reductions, as part and parcel of merger discussions? Would you, honestly, be equally fine with having yourself permanently considered "just a furolughed pilot"..if such reached your number? T'ain't nuthin' that's impossible within this industry.....

 

[elixir]

At the risk of drawing fire, this bears investigating.

This "snapshot" deal that has been used in "our merger"....

So, exactly how does this bear upon "career expectations"?....

How does it bear upon "length of service"....?

How does it bear upon "DOH"...?

Rhetorical questions, because it does NOT bear upon any of these things. If management was empowered by "snapshots", then they could easily "snap" a scenario to do a deal and get away with it...every time.

If a union (any union ) allows for "snapshots", what the h@ll is going to prevent management from doing whatever they need to in order to get a "deal done"...?
Huh?...huh?

Any REAL union would nullify any such "snapshotting" of events for policymaking...it puts far too much power in managements hands, and renders a union who tolerates it moot.

UAL guys would #### a brick if UAL declared CH11....parked about 35 hulls, furloughed, and THEN took a "snapshot" of UAL in order to ink a deal with LCC....believe that....yet thats exactly what the West believves is fair.

 

[EastUS]

At the risk of drawing fire, this bears investigating.

This "snapshot" deal that has been used in "our merger"....

So, exactly how does this bear upon "career expectations"?....

How does it bear upon "length of service"....?

How does it bear upon "DOH"...?

Rhetorical questions, because it does NOT bear upon any of these things. If management was empowered by "snapshots", then they could easily "snap" a scenario to do a deal and get away with it...every time.

If a union (any union ) allows for "snapshots", what the h@ll is going to prevent management from doing whatever they need to in order to get a "deal done"...?
Huh?...huh?

UAL guys would #### a brick if UAL declared CH11....parked about 35 hulls, furloughed, and THEN took a "snapshot" of UAL in order to ink a deal with LCC....believe that....yet thats exactly what the West believves is fair.

"Any REAL union would nullify any such "snapshotting" of events for policymaking...it puts far too much power in managements hands, and renders a union who tolerates it moot."

I'm in fullest agreement as to that being exactly so sir....It's further my earnest belief that rendering any "relative" value unto ANY employees..based upon any such nonsensical whims-of-the-moment, provides fine manure for growing an enviornment wherein employees have no definable "worth"...merely a "relative" value..fully subject to a moment's whim. That last being management's "whim" in the final analysis. "Hey guys/gals!..We're retiring xyz aircraft type...I'ts gonna' do great things for the company!..Ummm...you folks that were crewing those aircraft are no longer employed though...regardless of any "list"...we've just taken another "snapshot" this very moment..and you folks just aren't in it. Have a "relatively" nice life." "BTW?..We're "renaming" this clusterf--k, so that we can do anything we want to you fools!!" Given the current trend?..Things could well progress so that example becomes hardly as seemingly ridiculous a "snapshot" of the future as it might seem now....

 

[PA18]

P.S. as a side note, no I do not expect any union to be ok with any of their pilots being put on the bottom of a list because unions are like lawyers they are paid to fight tooth and nail for there clients right or wrong... guilty or not guilty. That's their job.

You are absolutely right.

I'm pleased to see that you are not in that vocal minority who are already seeking comfort and satisfaction in the notion that the UAL pilots are going to instantly become best buddies with the US West pilots, so they can both "gang up" on the US East pilots.

The UAL pilots are going to look after the UAL pilots, US East and West be damned.

As it should be.

And I also wouldn't harbor any false hopes that the UAL pilots are going to be the big promoters and defenders of the Nicolau award, as some here seem to be doing.

The UAL pilots will take a long, hard look at the Nicolau award, in the context of how it could possibly affect them. If they discover anything in the award that could be construed as negative to their own pilot group, you will likely see them embrace the award in the same manner that the US East pilots did.

As it should be.

 

[flynomore]

At the risk of drawing fire, this bears investigating.

This "snapshot" deal that has been used in "our merger"....

So, exactly how does this bear upon "career expectations"?....

How does it bear upon "length of service"....?

How does it bear upon "DOH"...?

Rhetorical questions, because it does NOT bear upon any of these things. If management was empowered by "snapshots", then they could easily "snap" a scenario to do a deal and get away with it...every time.

If a union (any union ) allows for "snapshots", what the h@ll is going to prevent management from doing whatever they need to in order to get a "deal done"...?
Huh?...huh?

========================================================

What I think that all means is that any fair seniority integration is one that ensures that I am ahead of you. Pretty simple, unless we choose some other objective standard instead of an arbitrary one chosen by a third party.

The colorful posts show that US Air folks are taking a longer view where eventually we all stop doing this, while IMO the AWA folk are focused on the now forgetting that eventually the young always inherit the sum.

Save Dave and all that.

Any REAL union would nullify any such "snapshotting" of events for policymaking...it puts far too much power in managements hands, and renders a union who tolerates it moot.

UAL guys would #### a brick if UAL declared CH11....parked about 35 hulls, furloughed, and THEN took a "snapshot" of UAL in order to ink a deal with LCC....believe that....yet thats exactly what the West believves is fair.

 

[elixir]

"Any REAL union would nullify any such "snapshotting" of events for policymaking...it puts far too much power in managements hands, and renders a union who tolerates it moot."

I'm in fullest agreement as to that being exactly so sir....It's further my earnest belief that rendering any "relative" value unto ANY employees..based upon any such nonsensical whims-of-the-moment, provides fine manure for growing an enviornment wherein employees have no "worth"...merely a "relative" value..fully subject to a moment's whim. That last being management's "whim" in the final analysis.

Well, I'm just a 47 year old junior "puke" who gains little from this deal either way....but the fundanmental principles are indisputable in my mind....lets recap:

A 1987 hire date a AAA was a junior Captain before 9/11...afterwards, a junior FO on group II....anybody beneath that person was "snapshotted" off the property....AFTER 16+ YEARS OF SERVICE TO THE same employer?

Sorry guys, I may be relatively junior on the property, but I'm not relatively stupid...thats bull####.

 

[elixir]

========================================================

What I think that all means is that any fair seniority integration is one that ensures that I am ahead of you. Pretty simple, unless we choose some other objective standard instead of an arbitrary one chosen by a third party.

The colorful posts show that US Air folks are taking a longer view where eventually we all stop doing this, while IMO the AWA folk are focused on the now forgetting that eventually the young always inherit the sum.

Save Dave and all that.

Did I say anything like who goes before who?....

I'm talking about the way your "Knight in Shining White Armor" (UAL) is going to think about exactly "who saved who" now.....

be careful what you wish for....you may just get it...in spades.

Lets see....there's the HP system in all it's glory....then there's the UAL system in all it's relative glory...with DOH, LOS, and Career Expectations staring you squarely in the face...


hmmmm.

 

[elixir]

"Any REAL union would nullify any such "snapshotting" of events for policymaking...it puts far too much power in managements hands, and renders a union who tolerates it moot."

I'm in fullest agreement as to that being exactly so sir....It's further my earnest belief that rendering any "relative" value unto ANY employees..based upon any such nonsensical whims-of-the-moment, provides fine manure for growing an enviornment wherein employees have no definable "worth"...merely a "relative" value..fully subject to a moment's whim. That last being management's "whim" in the final analysis. "Hey guys/gals!..We're retiring xyz aircraft type...I'ts gonna' do great things for the company!..Ummm...you folks that were crewing those aircraft are no longer employed though...regardless of any "list"...we've just taken another "snapshot" this very moment..and you folks just aren't in it. Have a "relatively" nice life." "BTW?..We're "renaming" this clusterf--k, so that we can do anything we want to you fools!!" Given the current trend?..Things could well progress so that example becomes hardly as seemingly ridiculous a "snapshot" of the future as it might seem now....

Lets play this game out another line...

"hey guys and gals on the XYZ aircraft... it's old, it's inefficient...and it will save us MILLIONS if we park it....and BILLIONS if we don't retrain you who are on it...sorry, you made a bad bid two years ago...sorry, your "snapshotted off the property going forward..."

I mean, really, does it take a Mensa member to see where this will go...?

 

[EastUS]

Did I say anything like who goes before who?....

I'm talking about the way your "Knight in Shining White Armor" (UAL) is going to think about exactly "who saved who" now.....

Lets see....there's the HP system in all it's glory....then there's the UAL system in all it's relative glory...with DOH, LOS, and Career Expectations staring you squarely in the face...
hmmmm.

"I'm talking about the way your "Knight in Shining White Armor" (UAL) is going to think about exactly "who saved who" now....."

"But, but, BUT!!...UA's even looking at fleet reductions!..That makes us AWA-Nicsters, even WAaaaay more "relatively" important now!".."and their guys/gals are just gonna' LOVE us!!" .

...Insert Heavy Sigh here.

"I mean, really, does it take a Mensa member to see where this will go...?" Doesn't hurt..but I don't see any requirement for that, just to have it all sink in.....eventually.

 

[Junebug172]

I say shut the thread down for a month...it's ridiculous.

Before that happens, I just heard that a West FO was terminated for verbally attacking an East pilot at a gate...I don't know if this is old news, can anyone confirm this?

Untrue.

No one has been terminated.