Outsourcing at AA

[FWAAA]

Will like to know when the 757 CFP is leaving. Suppose to be this summer. Anybodt know?

AAR was recently awarded a contract by an un-named airline for a complete interior refurb of 56 757s:

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/11116774/aar-awarded-major-us-airline-reconfiguration-program

On another site, Delta fans assumed that the customer was DL, but maybe it's AA.

 

[Thomas Paine]

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/56043-aar-to-open-new-aircraft-maintenance-facility-in-lake-charles-louisiana/#entry1019238

Watch out Tulsa. Can you match the pay that AAR will pay in Louisiana? Wll you go that low?

That question has been asked and answered, the answer is "YES", as long as they can drag the line down along with them. Tulsa has proven that they will accept any concession as long as the line takes the same concession. Look at the 2010 vote and the 2012 votes. Tulsa rejected the 2010 deal because the line was getting more than OH, but then accepted a deal that was even worse once the disparity was removed. Tulsa had the numbers to do that but shortly that will no longer be the case, and its their own fault.

 

[texasreb]

AAR was recently awarded a contract by an un-named airline for a complete interior refurb of 56 757s:

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/11116774/aar-awarded-major-us-airline-reconfiguration-program

On another site, Delta fans assumed that the customer was DL, but maybe it's AA.

AAR was recently awarded a contract by an un-named airline for a complete interior refurb of 56 757s:

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/11116774/aar-awarded-major-us-airline-reconfiguration-program

On another site, Delta fans assumed that the customer was DL, but maybe it's AA.

Maybe at AFW?

 

[Thomas Paine]

Unfortunately Tulsa has made it so the only way for line guys to have a future is if Tulsa doesn't.

 

[AA Tulsa Mechanic]

Keep telling yourself that, LOL.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

That question has been asked and answered, the answer is "YES", as long as they can drag the line down along with them. Tulsa has proven that they will accept any concession as long as the line takes the same concession. Look at the 2010 vote and the 2012 votes. Tulsa rejected the 2010 deal because the line was getting more than OH, but then accepted a deal that was even worse once the disparity was removed. Tulsa had the numbers to do that but shortly that will no longer be the case, and its their own fault.

I'd just like to say that as far as I am concerned. I had no problem with the line getting line pay. I did have a problem with Tulsa getting $3000 one time lump sum payment before taxes and a "Promise" of some kind of performance pay incentive that nobody had even discussed yet. Also giving away prefunded medical. Sorry, but I wasn't going to shoot myself in the head so the line guys could get an increase in line pay. We gave away the farm in 2003 to keep pension and prefunded medical. So I was supposed to give them back my prefunded medical for $3K? Please don't paint us all with the same brush.

 

[Thomas Paine]

I'd just like to say that as far as I am concerned. I had no problem with the line getting line pay. I did have a problem with Tulsa getting $3000 one time lump sum payment before taxes and a "Promise" of some kind of performance pay incentive that nobody had even discussed yet. Also giving away prefunded medical. Sorry, but I wasn't going to shoot myself in the head so the line guys could get an increase in line pay. We gave away the farm in 2003 to keep pension and prefunded medical. So I was supposed to give them back my prefunded medical for $3K? Please don't paint us all with the same brush.

If you voted NO on the current deal then I apologize to you and the others in Tulsa who voted NO, but taken as a whole the statement applies. You are of the minority in Tulsa. The majority of the guys in Tulsa who voted NO in 2010 voted YES in 2012. The TWU told you we gave those concessions to keep Prefunding and retiree medical, everyone else was told the concessions, both in 2003 and 2012 were to save OH, more specifically Tulsa.

 

[swamt]

If you voted NO on the current deal then I apologize to you and the others in Tulsa who voted NO, but taken as a whole the statement applies. You are of the minority in Tulsa. The majority of the guys in Tulsa who voted NO in 2010 voted YES in 2012. The TWU told you we gave those concessions to keep Prefunding and retiree medical, everyone else was told the concessions, both in 2003 and 2012 were to save OH, more specifically Tulsa.

And they will do it again in 2017 and 2018. The concessions just keep rolling in with the TWU/company union and the Company working together once again agreeing to more and more concessions...

 

[Bob Owens]

And they will do it again in 2017 and 2018. The concessions just keep rolling in with the TWU/company union and the Company working together once again agreeing to more and more concessions...

Probably not. The two key groups in getting the concessions passed for the last twenty years were Tulsa and Title II. Title II went relatively unscathed in 2003, there were 2000 then and there were 2000 when the company filed BK in late 2011, now there are around 1500 T-II, Aircraft maintenance lost over 3500 jobs over that same time span.

I've seen several different leaders come out of Tulsa, but in the end they were all the same. The latest that I dealt with, John Hewitt was OK with the concessions as long as the Line didnt get a penny more than the bases and Tulsa got as much from AFW as they could handle, even though the company made it clear that they felt they were paying above market rate for OH and acknowledged that they were paying below market rate for the line, in the end he screwed his own guys by getting them to buy off on a deal that would shrink Tulsa permanently, if not lead to its total demise. He was too busy making sure that the line didnt get any more than the line and trying to strike a deal where Tulsa could work 3-13 hour shifts and dropped the ball on the language that would really offer Tulsa protection. Then he actually put out a Video saying that he felt that the behaviour of those who were against the deal as "downright criminal'. Sam, despite being an FSC was far more reasonable that Hewitt.

I have to laugh when Overspeed comes here and admits that our headcount will drop to around 6500 by the end of this contract, but then claims that our current language will force the company to bring in work once their total spend on outsourcing increases above a limit thats anything but clearly defined sometime during the next contract. He fails to look at the reality of what will happen in 10 years when the line and Taesl(if they still exist) will by far outnumber whatever remains in Tulsa. Lets look at the situation where the line and Taesl far outnumber Tulsa and Title II combined.(lets also see what happens with "AFW Solutions", will they start competing with Tulsa for OH work in a facility thats much closer, newer and more attractive for recruiting?)

RR wants quality and productivity, if they can't retain mechanics that can deliver both they will either raise compensation (above what AA will be willing to give Tulsa) or abandon the only facility they have in the America's. My guess its easier to raise compensation.

The line guys will still lag everyone in the industry by a wide margin, while the mid term wage adjustment will help a little we will still be pretty deep into the bottom once all premiums, vacation, Holidays, sick pay, Health and retirement benfits are factored in. And the work rules, well we will still be more like JetBlue and Delta than United or Southwest with our Juniority Lists, management selected CCs, management controled CS policy, no DATS, 1.5x OT, straight time for training, etc etc. We will want an industry leading contract. I'm betting Videtich and Gless wont be around telling us to "lower our expectations" unless of course in order to avoid working under the terms they helped put in place they jump into management, at least we wont be paying them $150k to $190k to destroy our careers anymore. If the company proposes that we continue to accept bottom of the industry wages so they can bring work in house thats currently (that that point in time) outsourced and restaff Tulsa, how do you really think the guys are going to vote? Will they vote to allow work thats outsourced to continue to be outsourced but bring compensation and workrules up to industry standards (including furlough protection for those on payroll) or be willing to continue to accept bottom of the industry so AA can try and hire people who right now arent even in High School yet? Even those who are left in Tulsa will vote for indutry standard wages before trying to get language forcing the company to bring work back in house that they are at the time outsourcing, more than likely the pendulem will swing the other way by then and the company will be looking to bring work back in house anyway where they have more control over it.

Although many claim its not possible, we may see positive changes in the TWU by the end of this month. Is it too Llittle too late? Will the changes be enough to put us in a position to undo the damege that we have done? Time will tell, my guess is at best the TWU has one year to make changes or they will be replaced. Clearly if Gless and Videtich retain any appointed position in the Union (I'm sure they will run around blaming everything on Jim Little but that does not excuse what they did, the worst Little could have done to them was have them work under the terms they pushed on all of their former coworkers) then those people who say we cant change the TWU are right.

Three weeks from today the TWU will open their Convention and that will give us a pretty good idea where this union is headed. Promises and goals are a frequent product of Conventions but most go unfulfillied. IMO we need structural changes that bring about transparency and accountability. Electronic ballotting so members can see how the people they elected to be delegates actually voted is a good start for the entire union. On a more parochial level we need to have the same control over our contracts at AA, as far as negotiations, enforcement and modifications that pretty much all the rest of the TWU already has, where elected officials speak directly to the company, not through apointed ATD officials and deal directly with top levels in management instead of an AATD that strips the locals of authority, conducts all conversations with the decision making levels of management, decides who sits on the board of system grievances, forms their own committees with the ability to speak on behalf of the Union and signs binding LOAs with or without the consent of the members or elected officials. One example of that is how the AATD, namely Gless and Videtich decided to settle a grievance by agreeing to eliminate the two year experience requirement for Line Maintenance. The company had put themselves in a bind and the TWU let them out of it by lowering the threshold to become a line mechanic. Sure they had a vote, but the Vote included Fleet Service Presidents who didnt represent any Line Maintenance mechanics. An example of International committees not accountable to the members or their elected representatives is the Benefits Committee, when Local 565 wanted to add a Line Mechanic to the Committee the International blocked it and said that the Presidents council had no say in the composition or existance of the Benefits committee, it was "Their committee". (One member of that Committee, from Tulsa, is running on the pro-Jim Little, pro status quo teaam for the International Treasurers position-obviously not an agent for change). The Benefits Committee not only reports what the company says about benefits but they act as the voice of the Union in meetings where elected officials are not present, elected officials who may dispute what the company is claiming, instead the company claims whatever they want without any challenge from elected Union officials. This may have played a part in the fact that the company grossly overcharged us for our benefits from 2003 to 2011, If not for the fact that a couple of Local Presidents actually did the math and brought it to light and pressured the International into greiving it we never even would have known about it, as it is we are only going to get pennies on the dollar of what we lost in addition to what we agreed to back in 2003 because the settlement has been rolled into the BK settlement. Perhaps if we had a benefits committee that was accountable to elected leaders this would have been caught and challenged before the company pocketed additional millions out of our pockets. The Benefits Committee does not work for the elected Presidents, they are appointed and they work under other appointed officials and are above and have authority over the elected Local Presidents. This is wrong and must be changed. The Presidents Council wanted to add a guy from the line, the committee was against it, International Rep Bobby Gless told the elected Presidents they have no say in who the International puts on the Committee. A Committee that meets witth the company essentailly to negotiate our benefits. All this has to change as well, its not enough to change faces, some of these people on these various committees are capable people and do as good of a job as the structure and administration allows them to do, still they need to be accountable to the membership, not appointed ATD officilas with very cozy relationships with management. The structure must be changed because people are fallable, even if you place good people in a failed structure its inevitable that they too will fail the members. The people I will support at the Convention have committed to making changes and giving the power to the Locals. By the end of this month we will know if this organization can be changed to suit our needs or if for us its beyond hope and our only real alternative is to leave. For me the bellwether will be whether or not Gless and Videtch remain in appointed positions or are told to return to the jobs they were instrumental in destroying. Getting rid of them is an essential first step, management should be informed that all the dealings they conducted with Gless or Videtich will be done with the appropriate Local President. During the BK process only those selected by the ATD were allowed to take part in secret "high Level" negotiations, Local Presidents were excluded-that should never be possible to repeat.

 

[1AA]

I doubt much change will happen at the convention. Why should it? These guys are all appointed and are not held accountable to the membership. The real solution is for the M&R to leave this union once and for all. The back door dealings and back stabbing will continue, I just do not want to be a part of it anymore.

 

[Bob Owens]

I doubt much change will happen at the convention. Why should it? These guys are all appointed and are not held accountable to the membership. The real solution is for the M&R to leave this union once and for all. The back door dealings and back stabbing will continue, I just do not want to be a part of it anymore.

Understandable, its been bad and getting worse for so long that many feel that way. When you pay Union dues and have a contract that puts your compensation far below the compensation at non union carriers, where even your work rules and benefits are not in totality better than Non-Union and are more like Non-union than Union, (Juniority Lists, CC Selection panels, company controlled CSO Policy etc) its hard to feel that membership has any benefits, if anything, presently we are actually penalized in many ways, our membership in the TWU is what puts our compensation at beliow market rates, if we had no union the line would likely be making more in order to keep a Union out. Little and Videtich even solicited and endorsed the words of known Union buster Larry Gibbons (Ex-President of AIRCON.org) in order to convince the Negotaiting committee to overturn a vote to ask to be released that had passed. By not moving the processs forward in 2010 it really screwed us in the BK. Had we moved it forward we likely would have made considerable gains, and then the 20% giveback in BK (driven mainly by concessions they wanted from the Pilots) would not have set us below even USAIR. Of all the groups at AA mechanics fared the worst in BK. We are further behind our peers than any other group and if we had accepted the 2010 agreement that would still be the case.

Other TWU Locals who never realy understood what we go through with the AATD have grown weary of the Little slates pro-company self aggrandizing/enriching ways. Time will tell. I will continue to do what I can to change it though. If Little goes away(to retirement, he already announced it) but his team and the structure remains in place then my hopes for change will be greatly diminished. The departure of Gless and Videtich is essentail. A change in leadership is the first step, the Gordon ticket. which is essentially the Little ticket must all be rejected. Hopefully with the Lombardo ticket we can make the structural changes we must have, We cant have it where all the spots in a faulty structure are simply filled with new faces, the structure must be changed. At best I figure we have a year to do it. If not I'm sure the membership will make use of other options. Having a choice is a good thing.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

[font="Arial""]First off I will not argue that fact that the line guys need to get their line pay increased. Many do live in high cost areas and this pay is essential. The part of all these posts I dispute is the idea that a line mechanic is higher life form than a base mechanic. I would like to point out that me, and my coworkers in Tulsa, are airline mechanics just like any of you line guys. There is not one A&P licensed mechanic here that couldn't do the work of line mechanic. Just as there is no line mechanic that can't do the work of the overhaul mechanic. Many of us in Tulsa have spent a lot of years here. If back in 85 when I and many others hired on, if AA had paid more for line mechanic then I and other overhaul mechanics would have used our seniority and bid to the line. The idea that line mechanics should be awarded pay increases while base mechanics get MRO wages is ridiculous. If that is the way it is going to be then open up all the line maintenance for open bid. I will bid the line and force someone else to go to Tulsa and make MRO wages. This would be the only fair thing to do since we want to change the rules in the middle of the game, or towards the end of our careers. I would guess this would cause a complete turnover in Dallas as most in Tulsa would select DFW over most other places. Some have hinted that AA would not have a problem paying line mechanics but refuse to raise the pay for those of us in Tulsa. I would like to point out that to date AA does not want to pay ANY MECHANIC a fair wage. We also have a union that allows and even encourages this bickering between the groups. We know that there are MROs that pay low wages to inexperienced people. We also know that the overhaul mechanics in Tulsa are some of the most experienced in the world and the work we do is second to none. Comparing us to an MRO is comparing apples to oranges. I will also admit that due to weak leadership in Tulsa, this and all other less than desirable contracts have been voted in by the Tulsa membership. I personally have fought against local 514 and still speak out against them. In 2010 I voted no. Not to deny the line mechanics a $2.55 an hour line pay premium, but to keep myself from a onetime $3000 lump sum payment and the forfeiture of the prefunded retiree medical. I voted no in 2012 and stood side by side with line guys from DFW across the street from the base trying to influence a no vote. I also stood alone out in the same spot on other occasions with a vote no sign. So now my line buddies want to drop me in the grease? That sounds like something Gless and Videtich would do.[/font]

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I guess what I am saying is that if AA wants to outsource then they will. I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over it. But I will not sit quietly by while my fellow AMTs claim I am not worth what they are. I have the same license you have. Right now they want to outsource me. Sooner or later they will outsource you.

 

[amtide]

First off I will not argue that fact that the line guys need to get their line pay increased. Many do live in high cost areas and this pay is essential. The part of all these posts I dispute is the idea that a line mechanic is higher life form than a base mechanic. I would like to point out that me, and my coworkers in Tulsa, are airline mechanics just like any of you line guys. There is not one A&P licensed mechanic here that couldn't do the work of line mechanic. Just as there is no line mechanic that can't do the work of the overhaul mechanic. Many of us in Tulsa have spent a lot of years here. If back in 85 when I and many others hired on, if AA had paid more for line mechanic then I and other overhaul mechanics would have used our seniority and bid to the line. The idea that line mechanics should be awarded pay increases while base mechanics get MRO wages is ridiculous. If that is the way it is going to be then open up all the line maintenance for open bid. I will bid the line and force someone else to go to Tulsa and make MRO wages. This would be the only fair thing to do since we want to change the rules in the middle of the game, or towards the end of our careers. I would guess this would cause a complete turnover in Dallas as most in Tulsa would select DFW over most other places. Some have hinted that AA would not have a problem paying line mechanics but refuse to raise the pay for those of us in Tulsa. I would like to point out that to date AA does not want to pay ANY MECHANIC a fair wage. We also have a union that allows and even encourages this bickering between the groups. We know that there are MROs that pay low wages to inexperienced people. We also know that the overhaul mechanics in Tulsa are some of the most experienced in the world and the work we do is second to none. Comparing us to an MRO is comparing apples to oranges. I will also admit that due to weak leadership in Tulsa, this and all other less than desirable contracts have been voted in by the Tulsa membership. I personally have fought against local 514 and still speak out against them. In 2010 I voted no. Not to deny the line mechanics a $2.55 an hour line pay premium, but to keep myself from a onetime $3000 lump sum payment and the forfeiture of the prefunded retiree medical. I voted no in 2012 and stood side by side with line guys from DFW across the street from the base trying to influence a no vote. I also stood alone out in the same spot on other occasions with a vote no sign. So now my line buddies want to drop me in the grease? That sounds like something Gless and Videtich would do.

Seniority rules, if you want to bid the line you are welcome to. There is a procedure to do it and we hope there is no special treatment to anybody but with TWU anything is possible.

There is a reality in the industry, look around, the airlines are not willing to pay the same for overhaul and the line. AA so far has been able to do it subsidizing the oh with the line. I respect the oh and agree that you guys are as good technicians as we on the line. Is just the ugly truth and the goverment is the one to blame by allowing the US jobs to be farmed out to other ciuntries.

 

[DallasConehead]

[font=Arial"]First off I will not argue that fact that the line guys need to get their line pay increased. Many do live in high cost areas and this pay is essential. The part of all these posts I dispute is the idea that a line mechanic is higher life form than a base mechanic. I would like to point out that me, and my coworkers in Tulsa, are airline mechanics just like any of you line guys. There is not one A&P licensed mechanic here that couldn't do the work of line mechanic. Just as there is no line mechanic that can't do the work of the overhaul mechanic. Many of us in Tulsa have spent a lot of years here. If back in 85 when I and many others hired on, if AA had paid more for line mechanic then I and other overhaul mechanics would have used our seniority and bid to the line. The idea that line mechanics should be awarded pay increases while base mechanics get MRO wages is ridiculous. If that is the way it is going to be then open up all the line maintenance for open bid. I will bid the line and force someone else to go to Tulsa and make MRO wages. This would be the only fair thing to do since we want to change the rules in the middle of the game, or towards the end of our careers. I would guess this would cause a complete turnover in Dallas as most in Tulsa would select DFW over most other places. Some have hinted that AA would not have a problem paying line mechanics but refuse to raise the pay for those of us in Tulsa. I would like to point out that to date AA does not want to pay ANY MECHANIC a fair wage. We also have a union that allows and even encourages this bickering between the groups. We know that there are MROs that pay low wages to inexperienced people. We also know that the overhaul mechanics in Tulsa are some of the most experienced in the world and the work we do is second to none. Comparing us to an MRO is comparing apples to oranges. I will also admit that due to weak leadership in Tulsa, this and all other less than desirable contracts have been voted in by the Tulsa membership. I personally have fought against local 514 and still speak out against them. In 2010 I voted no. Not to deny the line mechanics a $2.55 an hour line pay premium, but to keep myself from a onetime $3000 lump sum payment and the forfeiture of the prefunded retiree medical. I voted no in 2012 and stood side by side with line guys from DFW across the street from the base trying to influence a no vote. I also stood alone out in the same spot on other occasions with a vote no sign. So now my line buddies want to drop me in the grease? That sounds like something Gless and Videtich would do.[/font]

Do you guys really think all the techs on the line are junior? Think again my friend, your dreaming.