Outsourcing at AA

[Bob Owens]

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[Bob Owens]

Thirty years ago the mechanics at AA voted to give up the job of Receive and Dispatch, then a few years later they lost deicing even in the stations that still had line mechanics. Those jobs are gone, never to come back and the TWU was OK with it at the time because the work went to other lower paid TWU members. Now those jobs are outsourced at many formerly TWU staffed cities. It took twenty years and BK in the post 9-11 period for some of our union brothers at other carriers to finally give that work up. There was no call to give away everything to save those jobs, and many stations were closed to Line Maintenance. Well now AA is at the tail end of change, much of the low yield OH work will be outsourced, some high tech value driven work will stay in house, driving down wages to try and stop this will not be successful, it will simply continue to hurt everyone in the profession. A sounder strategy would have been to hold on to compensation and system protection at ALL costs and allow the company to meet its outsourcing objectives through attrition and early out incentives, or face a strike by the entire workgroup. The path we chose gave the company the best of everything, the ability to outsource as much as they want and the lowest cost mechanics in the industry. the fact is despite massive job losses AA still has people on the payroll that were hired this year, attrition and buyouts could have met their objectives without all the other massive concessions. Even Tom Roth admitted that we were so far below the industry that in a PEB situation we wouldn't likely lose more, but we would lose the language keeping the scale of OH we had in house, which we lost anyway. By 2018 we wont have any more A&Ps per aircraft than any other multi-fleet International carrier but the A&Ps  we do have will be working more hours for much less money than even non-union carriers. Thank Don and his supporters like Overspeed for that.
 
OS you mentioned that the FAA needs to revamp the FARS, but isn't it true that when the FAA was discussing Duty Time Limits, which effectively reduce the number of manhours available, thus reducing the supply of A&P labor, which in theory drives an increase in wages, that Bobby Gless, as a representative of the Union, sided with A4A and testified against more restrictive Duty Times? Isnt it true that Bobby Gless was the ONLY union representative to speak against a measure that in the end helps mechanics in the same way it has helped pilots obtain six figure salaries? Who sent him there and why?

 

 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I agree with you Bob. (+1)
 
[SIZE=11pt]Sacrificing pay and benefits for jobs is a suckers bet.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=11pt]The employee loses every time.[/SIZE]

 

[Overspeed]

What's that your final death throws against the profession? Lower standards so the industry can broaden the pool of workers and keep wages low. You are despicable. We remember FAR 66 and what they were planning to do and we should start preparing ourselves to resist any move the FAA would make to reintroduce it. Creating a shortage by driving down wages should not be an excuse to ruin the profession and allow the carriers to take control and ownership of the process for the certification of Aircraft mechanics.
 
True that repair shops don't require A&Ps but the fact is they hire as many as they can get, and the reason why they are able to pay as little as they do is because many who invested in getting an A&P are willing to tolerate the miserly compensation (which is getting pretty close to what guys like you have established at AA) to gain experience so they can get a decent paying job, well now that that pool has pretty much dried up the MROs are having trouble not only getting A&Ps but its even less likely that someone who invested nothing but has skills will stay where they don't pay well or move his family to the middle of nowhere to work in one of those shops. The shortage of skills is not confined to this industry, there is no surplus of mechanics in any industry anymore.

Hardly. Read the article. It says new planes are driving down the need for as much MX capacity as in the past. This the new reality for all of us in the industry

 

[Overspeed]

Thirty years ago the mechanics at AA voted to give up the job of Receive and Dispatch, then a few years later they lost deicing even in the stations that still had line mechanics. Those jobs are gone, never to come back and the TWU was OK with it at the time because the work went to other lower paid TWU members. Now those jobs are outsourced at many formerly TWU staffed cities. It took twenty years and BK in the post 9-11 period for some of our union brothers at other carriers to finally give that work up. There was no call to give away everything to save those jobs, and many stations were closed to Line Maintenance. Well now AA is at the tail end of change, much of the low yield OH work will be outsourced, some high tech value driven work will stay in house, driving down wages to try and stop this will not be successful, it will simply continue to hurt everyone in the profession. A sounder strategy would have been to hold on to compensation and system protection at ALL costs and allow the company to meet its outsourcing objectives through attrition and early out incentives, or face a strike by the entire workgroup. The path we chose gave the company the best of everything, the ability to outsource as much as they want and the lowest cost mechanics in the industry. the fact is despite massive job losses AA still has people on the payroll that were hired this year, attrition and buyouts could have met their objectives without all the other massive concessions. Even Tom Roth admitted that we were so far below the industry that in a PEB situation we wouldn't likely lose more, but we would lose the language keeping the scale of OH we had in house, which we lost anyway. By 2018 we wont have any more A&Ps per aircraft than any other multi-fleet International carrier but the A&Ps  we do have will be working more hours for much less money than even non-union carriers. Thank Don and his supporters like Overspeed for that.
 
OS you mentioned that the FAA needs to revamp the FARS, but isn't it true that when the FAA was discussing Duty Time Limits, which effectively reduce the number of manhours available, thus reducing the supply of A&P labor, which in theory drives an increase in wages, that Bobby Gless, as a representative of the Union, sided with A4A and testified against more restrictive Duty Times? Isnt it true that Bobby Gless was the ONLY union representative to speak against a measure that in the end helps mechanics in the same way it has helped pilots obtain six figure salaries? Who sent him there and why?

The argument was that more comment period and study was required. The new rule interpretation was based mainly on Pratt and Whitney's management. So it was halted and now we can propose more practical rules for duty time. Now you can collect comments and argue for what our members want. It's your time to shine Bob. Show us how a true man of the people represents their members. I assume it must start with voting yourself in a huge raise. Looks like you are no different from those you complain about.

 

[TWU informer]

Hardly. Read the article. It says new planes are driving down the need for as much MX capacity as in the past. This the new reality for all of us in the industry

 
When happens at AA, you say it is the new reality. When it happened everywhere else you say it was the "Unions" fault.

 

[Overspeed]

 
When happens at AA, you say it is the new reality. When it happened everywhere else you say it was the "Unions" fault.

 
Man you overreach constantly. All the 757 and 777 HC is outsourced per the CBA but we kept all other overhaul. That's per the BK CBA which is much better than NWA who lost almost all MX in BK, DL who dropped all AO in BK, and UA who dropped all but three lines and the engine shop in BK. 
 
Now the new reality I referred to is the new aircraft that are driving down overhaul work even further. That is what I was referencing by posting the article. Now we are about to see 591's new reality imposed on everyone else because of the will of the people (read Line MX because Bob says the line is tired of supplementing your income).

 

[swamt]

 
When happens at AA, you say it is the new reality. When it happened everywhere else you say it was the "Unions" fault.

He also deflects the fact that the TWU agreed to and pushed for a yes vote all these concessions, job losses, rifs, and the loss of pay and bennies due to new work rule related language AGREED to.  He is now back pedaling on the facts saying that the fault is all due to the new aircraft coming in, typical industrial unionist at work, way to go TWU--way to go!!!

 

[swamt]

 
Man you overreach constantly. All the 757 and 777 HC is outsourced per the CBA but we kept all other overhaul. That's per the BK CBA which is much better than NWA who lost almost all MX in BK, DL who dropped all AO in BK, and UA who dropped all but three lines and the engine shop in BK. 
 
Now the new reality I referred to is the new aircraft that are driving down overhaul work even further. That is what I was referencing by posting the article. Now we are about to see 591's new reality imposed on everyone else because of the will of the people (read Line MX because Bob says the line is tired of supplementing your income).

Then explain Tulsa's reductions starting this year and ongoing for the next 6 years which will now (after someone has posted after their meetings in Tulsa) be over the previously thought count of 300-400 just from Tulsa.  Gee thanks TWU and all yes voters...

 

[Overspeed]

Then explain Tulsa's reductions starting this year and ongoing for the next 6 years which will now (after someone has posted after their meetings in Tulsa) be over the previously thought count of 300-400 just from Tulsa.  Gee thanks TWU and all yes voters...

 It's easy. The 2,000 that was dropped YE 2012 was due to the new CBA language. The 300 to 400 is what we were told is forecasted based on future maintenance needs. Not because of the CBA. You can choose to believe it or not. The yes votes did away with the 757 and 777 plus peak work if you read the CBA. I'm not saying it is good that any outsourcing was agreed to. Tell me what you think we would have gotten from Judge Lane if we had voted no and gone to abrogation? Based on what happened at all other airlines I was expecting the same thing that had happened at UA, US, and NW. Did you expect better? I suppose you could argue that I don't know that and you would be right. I don't but the facts say BK does not treat labor well. Unfortunately, it's to about what's fair, it's about what the law says.

 

[swamt]

 It's easy. The 2,000 that was dropped YE 2012 was due to the new CBA language. The 300 to 400 is what we were told is forecasted based on future maintenance needs. Not because of the CBA. You can choose to believe it or not. The yes votes did away with the 757 and 777 plus peak work if you read the CBA. I'm not saying it is good that any outsourcing was agreed to. Tell me what you think we would have gotten from Judge Lane if we had voted no and gone to abrogation? Based on what happened at all other airlines I was expecting the same thing that had happened at UA, US, and NW. Did you expect better? I suppose you could argue that I don't know that and you would be right. I don't but the facts say BK does not treat labor well. Unfortunately, it's to about what's fair, it's about what the law says.

Well, well, well.  OS finally admits to the nego team agreeing to outsourcing and all the other concessions.  WTF were you claiming this whole time that the TWU never agreed to any concessions??  I have been driving that and driving that for the past months and you have been calling me a liar. And now, here you sit and admit that the TWU DID in FACT agree to concessions.  My job is done with you.  And as many on here already know and can confirm, your word means nothing.  You constantly lie and twist and misinform almost every time you post.  You are a perfect fit with the TWU. Keep up the fine work you are doing to get them fired from AA.
 
"The 2,000 that was dropped YE 2012 was due to the new CBA language."     That the TWU agreed to.  And agreed to bring it to the floor. And agreed to help the company sell it to the members, and pushed hard for yes votes to sell it.  Pathetic representation, and you see it as;  "what else were we suppose to do? We couldn't stand up against judge lane, and goto arbitration, were too scared!"   The freakin pilots did, and they were able to get much better results for voting no and getting back to the table.  The TWU was weak and faltered, caved to the companies needs and sold that crap to the membership, like puppets on strings being controlled by the company. And this is why it is time for the TWU to go.  How pathetic man...

 

[Overspeed]

Well, well, well.  OS finally admits to the nego team agreeing to outsourcing and all the other concessions.  WTF were you claiming this whole time that the TWU never agreed to any concessions??  I have been driving that and driving that for the past months and you have been calling me a liar. And now, here you sit and admit that the TWU DID in FACT agree to concessions.  My job is done with you.  And as many on here already know and can confirm, your word means nothing.  You constantly lie and twist and misinform almost every time you post.  You are a perfect fit with the TWU. Keep up the fine work you are doing to get them fired from AA.
 
"The 2,000 that was dropped YE 2012 was due to the new CBA language."     That the TWU agreed to.  And agreed to bring it to the floor. And agreed to help the company sell it to the members, and pushed hard for yes votes to sell it.  Pathetic representation, and you see it as;  "what else were we suppose to do? We couldn't stand up against judge lane, and goto arbitration, were too scared!"   The freakin pilots did, and they were able to get much better results for voting no and getting back to the table.  The TWU was weak and faltered, caved to the companies needs and sold that crap to the membership, like puppets on strings being controlled by the company. And this is why it is time for the TWU to go.  How pathetic man...

 
I said "due to the new CBA" which was negotiated (not really) under the terms of the 1113c which obviously you know nothing about. The TWU never agreed to concessions in BK, they were forced on us by either voting in or having it imposed on us by the judge. The pilots only "won' that AA could not have unlimited layoffs or unlimited codesharing. That's it. 
 
I was fine with whatever the membership decided. If we had gone to the judge I have no idea what would have happened all I can do is look at others and see what happened. The definition of what is "better off" is subjective. Many who advocate for quality of pay and benefits sound very much like overhaul is done and we should just concede that and push for higher pay and benefits for those that are left. Easy to say of you are high seniority. But have you considered the fact that we will be at industry average pay for all AMTs in less than two years? We get to keep more overhaul in-house plus get competitive pay for more members than any other CBA out there. That's a win, not a concession and its an even bigger win because it was achieved in a BK CBA. 

 

[swamt]

 
I said "due to the new CBA" which was negotiated (not really) under the terms of the 1113c which obviously you know nothing about. The TWU never agreed to concessions in BK, they were forced on us by either voting in or having it imposed on us by the judge. The pilots only "won' that AA could not have unlimited layoffs or unlimited codesharing. That's it. 
 
I was fine with whatever the membership decided. If we had gone to the judge I have no idea what would have happened all I can do is look at others and see what happened. The definition of what is "better off" is subjective. Many who advocate for quality of pay and benefits sound very much like overhaul is done and we should just concede that and push for higher pay and benefits for those that are left. Easy to say of you are high seniority. But have you considered the fact that we will be at industry average pay for all AMTs in less than two years? We get to keep more overhaul in-house plus get competitive pay for more members than any other CBA out there. That's a win, not a concession and its an even bigger win because it was achieved in a BK CBA. 

It was agreed to or it would have never came out for a vote!  Most unions leaders have the balls to "refuse" to release it to the members, therefore no vote.  Gee, what a concept.  The TWU not only brought it out, they bragged about it, they recommended it, and they pushed and campaigned for a yes vote, DID THEY NOT OS???  Keep telling yourself that the TWU was forced to agree to it, it will make you feel better in the long run for what you have put the members thru.  OH BOY!!  in less than 2 years you will be at industry average.  You guys should have never been below industry average, and now you are celebrating getting back to IA, very sad.  By the time you guys get your IA other airlines will have nego their new contracts (maybe including us) and once again you guys will fall out of IA.   As Bob Owens have already pointed out, the TWU has been agreeing to concessions after concessions for over 3 decades.  That's 30 years OS, back when the TWU first started the concession train for our industry.  1983, 1993, 2003, and the most recent 2012.  If wasn't for the most recent being in 2012 it would have shown a consistant concessions train every 10 years.  Keep up the good job.  I am sure all the nego's are saying very proudly; "I helped nego that contract for my members"---NOT!!   Instead they (like you) are screaming "we were forced to agree to it".   Very sad and pathetic representation for well over 30 years.  Time for the TWU to go...

 

[Overspeed]

It was agreed to or it would have never came out for a vote!  Most unions leaders have the balls to "refuse" to release it to the members, therefore no vote.  Gee, what a concept.  The TWU not only brought it out, they bragged about it, they recommended it, and they pushed and campaigned for a yes vote, DID THEY NOT OS???  Keep telling yourself that the TWU was forced to agree to it, it will make you feel better in the long run for what you have put the members thru.  OH BOY!!  in less than 2 years you will be at industry average.  You guys should have never been below industry average, and now you are celebrating getting back to IA, very sad.  By the time you guys get your IA other airlines will have nego their new contracts (maybe including us) and once again you guys will fall out of IA.   As Bob Owens have already pointed out, the TWU has been agreeing to concessions after concessions for over 3 decades.  That's 30 years OS, back when the TWU first started the concession train for our industry.  1983, 1993, 2003, and the most recent 2012.  If wasn't for the most recent being in 2012 it would have shown a consistant concessions train every 10 years.  Keep up the good job.  I am sure all the nego's are saying very proudly; "I helped nego that contract for my members"---NOT!!   Instead they (like you) are screaming "we were forced to agree to it".   Very sad and pathetic representation for well over 30 years.  Time for the TWU to go...

 
Now that Bob and the new E Brd are in charge I look forward to the big raise we are getting. It's put up or shut up time. No one is there for them to blame. So we don't need AMFA. I'm totally fine with that.

 

[1AA]

 
Now that Bob and the new E Brd are in charge I look forward to the big raise we are getting. It's put up or shut up time. No one is there for them to blame. So we don't need AMFA. I'm totally fine with that.

Your totally fine with anything that does NOT promote our craft.