Outsourcing at AA

[skinvalve]

Per the IAM M&R contract Article 23 page 94 the last 3% pay raise was July 1, 2013. There are no more listed. Please, anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[700UW]

They got two raises after the amendable date, with this year's being the last one during section 6.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Why hasn't the TWU, or powerful AFL-CIO changed the system? We pay alot of money to be protected and represented to both. So why? I have been hearing we will get 'em next brother for years now. Next time never comes because we are paying a failing strategy and philosophy to represent our interest, and nothing changes. The leaders take their loot, and nothing changes even though you and everyone else knows the strategy is failing us. Read a little labor history and tell me where pussys trying to buy access ever changed a damn thing in workers favor.

I agree.
 
I made a post about this very topic for all the good it did.
 
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54792-it-is-time-for-a-new-approach/?hl=%2Banother+%2Bapproach

 

[Bob Owens]

So blaming the law now? So you agree the system does not favor us which is exactly what I have been saying all along. If you know you are about to get your own ass kicked then go ahead, fight. But you are talking about fighting with other peoples jobs in a battle you acknowledge you can't win under today's laws. Thank you for finally telling the truth.

once again, at one time it was the Law that said that if you belonged to a race that had more melanin in your skin you had to go to a separate (but supposedly equal) school, could only use certain drinking fountains, restrooms and had to sit in the back of the bus, unless a person with less melanin wanted the seat. That's not the case anymore. The law was changed because people who were the victims of this discrimination decided they would no longer obey these laws and the people who weren't realized they were right not to obey such laws.

If you knew anything about labor history then you would know that at one time Labor Unions were considered to be "Illegal organizations" that violated anti-trust laws because it affected the market price of labor. People continued to join unions despite the fact they were illegal, the law was changed because the Government knew that it was unenforceable and people would continue to join even though they made it illegal. Well over the years Corporations have made many gains as far as legally tilting the playing field against labor and making attempts by labor to make the field level illegal. So how should we respond? Well the same thing applies now as it did to the Civil rights movement and the Labor movement in the past, if the laws are morally flawed and discriminatory you do not obey them. If the laws are not equal you take action to implement equality. We join Unions because the theory is that by having many on the same page it makes us stronger, if we all do it then the likelihood of an effective response from the other side is diminished.

Bankruptcy law, as its been twisted by corrupt Judges over the years, treats Airline workers Unions especially, with especially harsh inequality. No other entity can be legally encumbered to accept terms in BK they did not agree to. No other Union in this country except airline unions can be legally forced to accept new terms. Every other Union, every other party can legally withdraw their product or services if they do not come to new mutually agreed upon terms, EXCEPT AIRLINE UNIONS. This occurred simply because they knew that the Union leadership was too weak to fight back and they would get away with it.

The single biggest reason why airlines lost money over the last ten years was fuel prices, and oil companies have enjoyed record profits over this same period. So its safe to say that the Oil companies bankrupted the airlines, not the workers, workers concessions went directly to the oil companies, AA management even said so in Negotiations. If we had any real Justice in this country the Oil companies would be the ones forced to accept terms , not workers. But there are only two ways of getting laws passed in the country, have enough money to buy it into place or be willing to fight for it and make it too costly not to do it. We don't have the money, but if we are willing to fight we can make it pretty costly. Just like the Civil Rights movement and the Labor movement in the past did.

So you can choose to sit back admit that the Laws are unfair, and still chose to advocate obeying such laws but that makes you even worse than those who made them that way.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I find that a pretty good analysis Bob. You had a lot of good points.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I would like to bring up some points and questions.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Points[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]TWU does not seem to follow the "same page" theory when they have so many title groups with separate contracts.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I keep hearing that UNION workers make more money for the same work. The more I look into it the more I find that is not always the case. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have found some of the highest paid jobs in the private sector are NONUNION. A lot of them do NOT require college but DO require specialized training. Most of these are extremely technical in nature.. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Questions[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you feel that the Railway Labor Act makes us a prime target in bankruptcy court?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Why is it more profitable to be a non-UNION car mechanic than to be a UNIONIZED aircraft mechanic in some instances? Mega carriers? Offshore outsourcing? corrupt UNIONS?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Most car mechanic shops are either non-UNION or individually UNIONIZED. Do you think if they all joined one big UNION and negotiated a contract the way TWU's locals do their good pay and benefits would hold?[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I am looking forward to hearing your response on the points and questions I have submitted.[/SIZE]

 

[Bob Owens]

 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Points[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I keep hearing that UNION workers make more money for the same work. The more I look into it the more I find that is not always the case. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have found some of the highest paid jobs in the private sector are NONUNION. A lot of them do NOT require college but DO require specialized training. Most of these are extremely technical in nature.. [/SIZE]
 

Key words there are "same work". generally Union workers do get paid more than Non-union doing the same work. FSCs for AA make more than their non-union counterparts doing the same work for Jet Blue, same with our Pilots and Flight Attendants. In rare cases, such as with mechanics at American Airlines and at Jet Blue, thanks to Little, Videtich et al you find the opposite, non-union mechanics at Jet Blue earn much more than their dues paying brothers at American Airlines. This is what happens when the leadership of the Union is taken over by people who are really anti-union, who push an anti union agenda upon a captive membership. Thankfully they are gone but it will be a long time before we recover from the damage they did.
 
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Questions[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you feel that the Railway Labor Act makes us a prime target in bankruptcy court?[/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]No, the fact that the corrupt Judges know the airline Union leadership is weak and divided is what makes us a prime target in BK. Airline Unions have screwed up on multiple occasions, one major screw up was not supporting PATCO back in the eighties, then the next major one was not supporting Continental workers when Lorenzo first used BK simply as a means of gaining leverage in negotiations and allowing the court to separate airline workers from rail workers within the RLA, then not supporting USAIR in 2002 then not supporting the AFA in 2007 when a Judge basically said that Airline Contracts are the only contracts that can be annulled in BK.  The plan to divide us up into two separate Unions will continue to insure that we remain weak, they don't really care because they still get their six figure salaries and benefits they say we don't deserve.  The RLA actually says that our contracts cant be abrogated outside the section six process, so does the Bankruptcy code but the Unions stood by as a Judge said without any supporting documentation that that part of the law did not apply to Airlines. Later, with the NWA Flight attendants another Judge ruled that not only does that section of the BK code not apply to the Airlines but he ruled that if a airline labor contract is abrogated by the court that "it never existed", in other words its not abrogated, its annulled, therefore we could not strike even though the RLA does state that if a carrier abrogates a contract that we can strike. A strong Union like the Longshoremans Union would have shut everything down if such a blatent travesty of legal opinion was put upon them. The Airline Union leadership did nothing, just as the Judges and Airlines figured. We are a target because we made ourselves attractive as a target because they know we wont shoot back.[/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Why is it more profitable to be a non-UNION car mechanic than to be a UNIONIZED aircraft mechanic in some instances? [/SIZE]
 

 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Because we had pro company people like Videtich, Oryiano, Gless, and Little along with a lot of weak minded elected leaders who were afraid to say no to AA management. [/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Mega carriers? Offshore outsourcing? [/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Same as above. Some would put all the blame on the YES voters, and they do deserve some of the blame, but when the leaders say not to fight most simply fall in line. whats really wrong is when these same leaders who say not to fight turn around and blame the members for not being willing to fight and not leading the way. They want the perks of the position but not the responsibility. [/SIZE]
 
 
 

[SIZE=10.5pt]Most car mechanic shops are either non-UNION or individually UNIONIZED. Do you think if they all joined one big UNION and negotiated a contract the way TWU's locals do their good pay and benefits would hold?[/SIZE]
 

Probably, as long as they did not end up with a Union where appointed unaccountable people have complete authority over the contracts and could be bought off with A-5 passes and an enhanced pension. You may not like to hear this but as far as AA FSCs they actually did fairly well compared to their peers. The problem for fleet, even more so than Maint, is that across the industry, the job has severely deteriorated. To me Fleet service essentially performs the same functions as a Longshoreman and should be organized the same and paid the same way, until that happens the job will continue to deteriorate until basically all FSCs are part time minimum wage workers, ironically the majority will probably still be unionized paying dues, just not earning what they should be.
 
The Industry changed, but our structure has not. This "alliance" just goes to show how disconnected the people running unions have become with the needs of the members. Its all about preserving the dues that pay their salaries and benefits and not about what is good for the workers.  

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Thank you Bob for your response.

 

[Overspeed]

once again, at one time it was the Law that said that if you belonged to a race that had more melanin in your skin you had to go to a separate (but supposedly equal) school, could only use certain drinking fountains, restrooms and had to sit in the back of the bus, unless a person with less melanin wanted the seat. That's not the case anymore. The law was changed because people who were the victims of this discrimination decided they would no longer obey these laws and the people who weren't realized they were right not to obey such laws.

If you knew anything about labor history then you would know that at one time Labor Unions were considered to be "Illegal organizations" that violated anti-trust laws because it affected the market price of labor. People continued to join unions despite the fact they were illegal, the law was changed because the Government knew that it was unenforceable and people would continue to join even though they made it illegal. Well over the years Corporations have made many gains as far as legally tilting the playing field against labor and making attempts by labor to make the field level illegal. So how should we respond? Well the same thing applies now as it did to the Civil rights movement and the Labor movement in the past, if the laws are morally flawed and discriminatory you do not obey them. If the laws are not equal you take action to implement equality. We join Unions because the theory is that by having many on the same page it makes us stronger, if we all do it then the likelihood of an effective response from the other side is diminished.

Bankruptcy law, as its been twisted by corrupt Judges over the years, treats Airline workers Unions especially, with especially harsh inequality. No other entity can be legally encumbered to accept terms in BK they did not agree to. No other Union in this country except airline unions can be legally forced to accept new terms. Every other Union, every other party can legally withdraw their product or services if they do not come to new mutually agreed upon terms, EXCEPT AIRLINE UNIONS. This occurred simply because they knew that the Union leadership was too weak to fight back and they would get away with it.

The single biggest reason why airlines lost money over the last ten years was fuel prices, and oil companies have enjoyed record profits over this same period. So its safe to say that the Oil companies bankrupted the airlines, not the workers, workers concessions went directly to the oil companies, AA management even said so in Negotiations. If we had any real Justice in this country the Oil companies would be the ones forced to accept terms , not workers. But there are only two ways of getting laws passed in the country, have enough money to buy it into place or be willing to fight for it and make it too costly not to do it. We don't have the money, but if we are willing to fight we can make it pretty costly. Just like the Civil Rights movement and the Labor movement in the past did.

So you can choose to sit back admit that the Laws are unfair, and still chose to advocate obeying such laws but that makes you even worse than those who made them that way.

 
Very interesting diatribe. A few points if we are going disobey the law and not saying there are no bad laws because they are.
 
USAPA started a job action recently and it did not end well http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2011/09/us-airline-pilots-association.html/
 
APA started a job action a while back which nearly bankrupted their union http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/15/american.airlines.02/
 
TWU Local 100 conducted a strike years ago and members are still recovering http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/dues-don-continue-haunt-twu-years-transit-strike-article-1.1065870
 
We can all follow your leadership but tell the truth, most do not win and they are many losers in the transit industry. Why were you so excited about a strike? Why were you so eager to get the contract abrogated? Who would be the winner and who would be the loser at AA in that scenario?
 
So we are taking on the oil companies now? The whole country is pissed at Wall Street and the oil companies. 
 
The list of what Bob blames for labor's woes is pretty long. Judges, BK law, NMB, the TWU, Oil Companies, Wall Street, etc. I would like to know what is Bob's plan for taking on all these things so that we will get pay raises and job security back. Are we climbing on busses to march on DC? 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Very interesting diatribe. A few points if we are going disobey the law and not saying there are no bad laws because they are.
 
USAPA started a job action recently and it did not end well http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2011/09/us-airline-pilots-association.html/
 
APA started a job action a while back which nearly bankrupted their union http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/15/american.airlines.02/
 
TWU Local 100 conducted a strike years ago and members are still recovering http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/dues-don-continue-haunt-twu-years-transit-strike-article-1.1065870
 
We can all follow your leadership but tell the truth, most do not win and they are many losers in the transit industry. Why were you so excited about a strike? Why were you so eager to get the contract abrogated? Who would be the winner and who would be the loser at AA in that scenario?
 
So we are taking on the oil companies now? The whole country is pissed at Wall Street and the oil companies. 
 
The list of what Bob blames for labor's woes is pretty long. Judges, BK law, NMB, the TWU, Oil Companies, Wall Street, etc. I would like to know what is Bob's plan for taking on all these things so that we will get pay raises and job security back. Are we climbing on busses to march on DC? 

In all those cases the Union may have taken a financial hit but their members fared better than if they had simply rolled over like we have done and you want us to continue to do. None of those groups only have one week of vacation, or paid as much for medical and they all have better pay and pensions than we do. So you are saying that the financial health of the Union should come ahead of pay and benefits for the members?
 
Look at local 100, they have recovered and are stronger than ever and still have a ZERO cost medical plan with coverage that blows away anything that we are offered. They have Holidays, not five days at half pay like us, and nearly four times as much vacation after the first year than we get. So yes the Union Treasury may have taken a hit but believe it or not the Treasury is supposed to be there for the members not to provide six figure salaries for a few selected appointees. The fact is when Local 100, the USAPA and the APA say they will fight back the Bosses know they will. So what if it cost them money, that's what its there for, to fight for and protect the members.
 
The APA had their fine rolled into their concessions and still came out way better than we did. They didn't pay a dime, they get what a 16% contribution while we get a 5% match. Oh so with all our capitulations our Treasury must be  flush right? NO, Jim Little blew $40 million on six figure appointed jobs for his loyalists, foolish real estate investments and big parties. had the TWU stayed on that trajectory they would be bankrupt within a year.
 
Would the membership have rather seen that $40 million used to pay a fine for telling AA and a Judge to go F themselves or see it go to people like Bobby Gless and Don Videtich to pay for their cars and six figure salaries? My bet is they would rather see the TWU fight and pay a fine if needed than spend it on the likes of them.
 
Was never in favor of striking, unless it was the only way. there are other forms of Industrial action besides a strike.  Your refusal to endorse industrial action or even the threat of a strike reveals your anti union mentality. Admit it, there are No terms whatsoever where you would endorse industrial actions up to and including a strike, you should not even be in a union because a Union that would never endorse a strike is not a Union. Why were you against even going for a release when back in 1997 the standard was set as to what qualifies as a transportation emergency and the establishment of a PEB? AA was not as big in 1997 as they were in 2009, 10,or 11, knowing full well that the odds were that we would end up in a PEB? can I guarantee it? No, but you have to be willing to take chances if you want to get anywhere in life. If you are willing to just accept what the Boss offers then go into a non-union position where you belong.
 
While all those things that you claim I blame are factors in our demise, at least you admit that, the fact is the real blame lies with the leadership who lead us to where we are, in fact they are the ones that blame them, you yourself blamed the law and said we cant do anything about it, but when we boil it down the blame lies primarily with the AATD and those who were swayed into following them.
 
If I told you my plan then I may as well tell AA management, because you are one in the same.

 

[Overspeed]

In all those cases the Union may have taken a financial hit but their members fared better than if they had simply rolled over like we have done and you want us to continue to do. None of those groups only have one week of vacation, or paid as much for medical and they all have better pay and pensions than we do. So you are saying that the financial health of the Union should come ahead of pay and benefits for the members?
 
Look at local 100, they have recovered and are stronger than ever and still have a ZERO cost medical plan with coverage that blows away anything that we are offered. They have Holidays, not five days at half pay like us, and nearly four times as much vacation after the first year than we get. So yes the Union Treasury may have taken a hit but believe it or not the Treasury is supposed to be there for the members not to provide six figure salaries for a few selected appointees. The fact is when Local 100, the USAPA and the APA say they will fight back the Bosses know they will. So what if it cost them money, that's what its there for, to fight for and protect the members.
 
The APA had their fine rolled into their concessions and still came out way better than we did. They didn't pay a dime, they get what a 16% contribution while we get a 5% match. Oh so with all our capitulations our Treasury must be  flush right? NO, Jim Little blew $40 million on six figure appointed jobs for his loyalists, foolish real estate investments and big parties. had the TWU stayed on that trajectory they would be bankrupt within a year.
 
Would the membership have rather seen that $40 million used to pay a fine for telling AA and a Judge to go F themselves or see it go to people like Bobby Gless and Don Videtich to pay for their cars and six figure salaries? My bet is they would rather see the TWU fight and pay a fine if needed than spend it on the likes of them.
 
Was never in favor of striking, unless it was the only way. there are other forms of Industrial action besides a strike.  Your refusal to endorse industrial action or even the threat of a strike reveals your anti union mentality. Admit it, there are No terms whatsoever where you would endorse industrial actions up to and including a strike, you should not even be in a union because a Union that would never endorse a strike is not a Union. Why were you against even going for a release when back in 1997 the standard was set as to what qualifies as a transportation emergency and the establishment of a PEB? AA was not as big in 1997 as they were in 2009, 10,or 11, knowing full well that the odds were that we would end up in a PEB? can I guarantee it? No, but you have to be willing to take chances if you want to get anywhere in life. If you are willing to just accept what the Boss offers then go into a non-union position where you belong.
 
While all those things that you claim I blame are factors in our demise, at least you admit that, the fact is the real blame lies with the leadership who lead us to where we are, in fact they are the ones that blame them, you yourself blamed the law and said we cant do anything about it, but when we boil it down the blame lies primarily with the AATD and those who were swayed into following them.
 
If I told you my plan then I may as well tell AA management, because you are one in the same.

 
I didn't blame the law, I am aware of the law. There is a difference.
 
And we argue at length of whether they ended up better off, because they did not when you view the contract in its totality not on cherry picked items.
 
So what's your solution Bob? How are you going to lead us to victory? Are we going on strike and then see what happens? Is that the plan? Should we all start saving money now for when the TWU asks for release in 2018 and we walk out 2020?

 

[Bob Owens]

 
I didn't blame the law, I am aware of the law. There is a difference.
 
And we argue at length of whether they ended up better off, because they did not when you view the contract in its totality not on cherry picked items.
 
So what's your solution Bob? How are you going to lead us to victory? Are we going on strike and then see what happens? Is that the plan? Should we all start saving money now for when the TWU asks for release in 2018 and we walk out 2020?

You didn't blame the law? Didn't you use that as an excuse for why we shouldn't fight back? Didn't you say that this is BK, that we didn't agree to this deal and it was forced on us through BK? Didn't you claim that outsourcing (which is permitted under the law) is to blame for our reduced compensation? So if you weren't blaming the law then why have we seen our pay in real terms plummet more than at any other carrier? Why in your view are we making less than non-union carriers?
 
In totality our contract was a 20%(plus)  reduction on top of the 25% (plus) reduction we took in 2003. No cherry picking there but by all means feel free to pick out any cherries you see in this pile of pits you call a contract. The fact is that if you ask any member whether they would rather work under our contract or the one that United, UPS, Southwest or even US has my bet is they would chose any of the others before they would choose your beloved contract.  the fact is this is the worst deal in the industry, its even worse than what Delta or Jet Blue has.
 
 
The answer is yes, you should start preparing to go on strike. You should always try to be prepared to go on strike. I assume that like your alter ego Don you are a gun advocate. Should I assume that because you may own a gun that you want to go out and kill people with it? Well how many people have you killed with your pistols? I assume none, but that is what pistols are designed to do, kill people, but you may  keep one ready with the hope that you never have to use it for its intended purpose, sometimes just letting a threat know you have a gun will be enough, same thing with a strike and being ready and prepared to strike, hopefully by being that way we never have to use it, but if we have to we must.
 
 
Totally ducked the issue about how the members of those unions fared I see. no need to argue at length, tell us one thing where the membership ended up worse than we did by fighting vs capitulating.

 

[Thomas Paine]

One of the articles cited by Overspeed says that the APA was ordered to pay a fine of $45 .5 million for fighting the company and disobeying a Judge that told them to stop, then Owens says that Jim Little blew $40 million on paying people like Don V and Bobby G six figure salaries and giving them cars paid for with our dues. IMO, The APA spent their money wisely compared to Jimmy Little and the APA members got a lot more for their money than we did.

 

[eolesen]

TWU's money was diverted from other activities. APA's more or less came out of the members' pockets in future paychecks.

The TWU guys are frog who boiled to death in a gradually hotter pot, and never noticed the difference until it was too late. The APA? Lobsters dumped into boiling water.

Same cause of death, but far different circumstances.

Are we climbing on busses to march on DC?

Oh, such a quandary.

Good luck finding a unionized bus line to take you... Other than Greyhound, they're all out of business, and I'm told Greyhound isn't doing as much charter work as they used to because they can't compete on price against the charter lines using non-union drivers.

If you fly, that just rewards the airlines you guys are fighting against.... certainly, you wouldn't all be able to get there and back as nonrevs.

You could take the train, but buses and airlines made most rail passenger travel obsolete about 60 years ago.

You could all drive American union-made cars, but that would still reward the oil companies every time you pulled into a gas station...

What to do, what to do....


There's no question that the rules have changed, but you can complain about the rulebook, or you can find a way to succeed. What's it gonna be, guys?... Are you gonna play, or are you gonna piss and moan about the referees?

 

[Bob Owens]

Plenty of Unionized options from NY to get to DC family guy. Easy for you to say follow the rules when your side wrote them, rules have been rewritten in the past, they can be rewritten in the future as well. Your side has the ability to buy the rules they want, our side has the ability to make them too costly to enforce.


The pilots still make more than you do, you call that death?

 

[eolesen]

My side? I'm neutral on this one.

There's a way to do things in a way that benefits both sides, but it takes both sides talking to achieve that. When's the last time either side was non-confrontational in their approaches?...