Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion
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nycbusdriver
Veteran
snapthis said:Where's that LLC to take your appeal to the 9th?
Cubic Zirconia...
Usapians like yourself are there already
It's called USAPA. Even after they are no longer the CBA, the C&B-Ls allow for them to remain in existence (with all of your dues money still in the bank) to fight you nitwits to the end.
snapthis
Veteran
- Dec 23, 2009
- 4,236
- 6,907
nycbusdriver said:
It's called USAPA. Even after they are no longer the CBA, the C&B-Ls allow for them to remain in existence (with all of your dues money still in the bank) to fight you nitwits to the end.
I'll give you a clue, since you obviously don't have one. Try accessing the account.
Frozen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQqy2VCahIU
nycbusdriver
Veteran
snapthis said:
I'll give you a clue, since you obviously don't have one. Try accessing the account.
Frozen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQqy2VCahIU
That's your answer? A commercial? You really are a moron. And, I say that with all the Christmas spirit I can muster in the face of such stupidity.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
As you read this remember in the American airlines employee manual (for all employees not just pilots) It states that you MAY NOT BE ON COMPANY property if you are not on duty or not being paid.
Another thing we need taken care of is the 20 minute diversion rule .
Can't believe this ever crept into their contract and agreement.
This is another bad deal at American.
If you are diverting to get more fuel or for a sick passenger or a security issue in their (our) contract they deduct 20 minutes from your pay for the diversion. WHY ?
Because American policy says that during a diversion for during the 20 minutes you are being fueled ( they take off the 20 minutes even if YOU DO NOT NEED ANY FUEL) you are not doing any work, so you should not be paid.
In the case of Sully's landing on the Hudson the American pilot at the contract line told me he is 100% sure the computer would have taken 20 minutes off his pay because he diverted for his amphibious landing if he had been under our current contract. So per the American contract Sully should have just stepped off the wing and done nothing for 20 minutes. he should have had a hot chocolate and wrapped a blanket around his feet and rested in the NY Fire Dept boat because he was not being paid for 20 minutes and per the HR handbook you cannot be on company property if you are not being paid.
THIS HAS TO GO. Especially during a diversion, you are working the entire time on the ground getting the ship back in the air.
What an American pilot told me is because of this 20 minutes of no pay rule; during a diversion they divert and pull into the gate.
Once the door is open : they do not review the new flight plan, they do not talk to the dispatcher, they don't deal with the medial issue, they don't deal with the security issue . They simple get up and go into the terminal to Starbucks. Instead of having a 20 min non-paid break they usually have a 30-40 minute break .
During a diversion this is the last time you want to be messing around with someone's pay or lack of.
It is in everyone's best interest to drop this rule so we get paid for the entire diversion AND the aircraft gets back in the air quickly .
Also when Tempe says they are working on these issues I will bet any of you a steak dinner that if we divert now that per the contract 20 minutes will be deducted from the flight. That they could and probably have put the 20 minute diversion rule in place instantly, but something that is a benefit due to us is something they need to "....have a working group review the policy....."
Please get this dropped theft of 20 minutes dropped.
Another thing we need taken care of is the 20 minute diversion rule .
Can't believe this ever crept into their contract and agreement.
This is another bad deal at American.
If you are diverting to get more fuel or for a sick passenger or a security issue in their (our) contract they deduct 20 minutes from your pay for the diversion. WHY ?
Because American policy says that during a diversion for during the 20 minutes you are being fueled ( they take off the 20 minutes even if YOU DO NOT NEED ANY FUEL) you are not doing any work, so you should not be paid.
In the case of Sully's landing on the Hudson the American pilot at the contract line told me he is 100% sure the computer would have taken 20 minutes off his pay because he diverted for his amphibious landing if he had been under our current contract. So per the American contract Sully should have just stepped off the wing and done nothing for 20 minutes. he should have had a hot chocolate and wrapped a blanket around his feet and rested in the NY Fire Dept boat because he was not being paid for 20 minutes and per the HR handbook you cannot be on company property if you are not being paid.
THIS HAS TO GO. Especially during a diversion, you are working the entire time on the ground getting the ship back in the air.
What an American pilot told me is because of this 20 minutes of no pay rule; during a diversion they divert and pull into the gate.
Once the door is open : they do not review the new flight plan, they do not talk to the dispatcher, they don't deal with the medial issue, they don't deal with the security issue . They simple get up and go into the terminal to Starbucks. Instead of having a 20 min non-paid break they usually have a 30-40 minute break .
During a diversion this is the last time you want to be messing around with someone's pay or lack of.
It is in everyone's best interest to drop this rule so we get paid for the entire diversion AND the aircraft gets back in the air quickly .
Also when Tempe says they are working on these issues I will bet any of you a steak dinner that if we divert now that per the contract 20 minutes will be deducted from the flight. That they could and probably have put the 20 minute diversion rule in place instantly, but something that is a benefit due to us is something they need to "....have a working group review the policy....."
Please get this dropped theft of 20 minutes dropped.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
It is bad enough we have to deal with Parker and Kirby, NIC and the unknown factor of the APA pilots, but not we have Bradford and Gary doing all they can to make sure we have the worst of all worlds when we put the airlines together and become real American pilots.
About the West having their own seat. They are represented by USAPA, if they come to the table what union is representing them ?
Also NIC applies to ALPA and US AIR. We don't have ALPA and US AIR will not exist soon, even USAPA will be gone soon so the NIC should die too.
Had a West pilot on the jump seat the other day. He is about 150 from the bottom in PHX. He feels that the NIC formula should also apply to American. Under his calculations after the merger WITH NIC he will go from a reserve F/O in PHX to a mid level B-737 Capt line holder in ORD.
With a straight face this guy really believes this will happen once we are all at American. SORRY SON AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!
nevergiveup
Veteran
- Nov 30, 2010
- 2,125
- 2,148
And with a fence, the nic would have cost you 0.00 Double down!snapthis said:The list was published in April. Many Silver and Bronze contributors have moved to the Titanium and Gold level.
Leonidas will be around long after USAPA is gone. So much about those predictions about a pending collapse, Marty's retirement and all.
It looks like the new year will bring in a few bonus checks and an expanding list.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
[SIZE=14pt]Ballot Certification Committee Resigns[/SIZE]
To the USAPA Officers and BPR: 12/24/2013
It is with great regret that we tender our resignations from the Ballot Certification Committee immediately.
It has been a privilege serving the pilots of USAPA, and we thank them for trusting us with the oversight of this important committee. We recognize that our members have very diverse and passionate views. USAPA's elections and referendums are the vehicle by which the collective will of our pilots is truly and accurately expressed.
We have had many challenges to overcome, both internal and external, in order to maintain fair elections for our pilots. Since its inception, every election conducted by this committee has adhered to the highest ethical standards, and has met or exceeded every applicable statute outlined by the US Department of Labor. We have worked very closely with the Department of Labor and have received high accolades from them, as well as from our pilots. We are proud of the fact that the Department of Labor has upheld this committee's actions and decisions in every challenge which has arisen to date.
The time commitment involved in scheduling, conducting, and officiating elections is considerable. Every member of our committee is married with young children. Our families' support, encouragement, and willingness to sacrifice time together, is what has made it possible for us to serve our fellow pilots.
We've dealt with a lot of challenges over the years, but the dysfunction and dirty politics which now seem to permeate USAPA's governing body has reached a level that we have not witnessed before at USAPA. It is truly sad to see just how much we have returned to the practices of our former bargaining agent.
It has recently come to our attention that several current and former BPR members have begun a campaign to undermine our personal integrity, and the integrity of the Ballot Certification Committee. We can only speculate that the intent of this campaign is to influence the outcome of the current recall referendum. We willingly endured the sacrifices to our personal and family lives in order to contribute to an organization which promised a better way to do business. Quite frankly, with the current level of dysfunction in USAPA, we have neither the time nor the desire to deal with such distractions.
We currently find ourselves in the difficult position of having to administer a recall referendum without the guidance of the Constitution and Bylaws or the UOM. In cases such as these, we must defer to the governing body for guidance. Unfortunately, recent actions by members of the BPR in knowingly disseminating false information to our pilots make it clear that the governing body lacks the integrity our pilots deserve. We refuse to be a part of any of that, and so we feel duty-bound to resign from the Ballot Certification Committee.
We are by no means trying to interfere with the ongoing referendum by withdrawing our volunteer services. Thus, should the BPR and officers request, we will provide the association with technical assistance in order to finish the current referendum and PHX nominations.
Fraternally,
Jay Morgan
Wes Yount
Andy Hunt
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
The Nicolau Award II seniority issue is simple, but those who support the DOH push I believe are intentionally accommodating their thoughts versus looking at the facts. Here are the facts.
1. The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard. Arbitration is a well-established and widely used means to end disputes. It is one of several kinds of Alternative Dispute Resolution, which provide parties to a controversy with a choice other than litigation. Unlike litigation, arbitration takes place out of court: the two sides select an impartial third party, known as an arbitrator; agree in advance to comply with the arbitrator's award; and then participate in a hearing at which both sides can present evidence and testimony. The arbitrator's decision is usually final, and courts rarely reexamine it.
USA320Pilot's comment: If USAPA is successful and disregarding a AAA final and binding Opinion & Award it makes a farce of the Dispute Resolution protocol. If a party can use its voting majority to impose its will against a minority party if it does not like an arbitration award than why even have a grievance or dispute resolution process? WHy not have a dictatorship instead?
2. The US Airways pilot's contract, LOA 96 (Transition Agreement), Section 4, at the time the Nicolau Award was issued, requires the parties to implement seniority lists per arbitrated award. When USAPA was elected as the pilots agent USAPA was bound to implement all sections and LOAs of the contract. This is why USAPA has been found guilty of DFR or will be guilty of DFR when the claim is ripe per every court.
Do I like this? No, of course not, but I do not believe it is appropriate for a majority group of people to violate contract law, violate the RLA, and attempt to impose their will on a minority group by stapling virtually an entire airline pilot group to the bottom of a joint seniority list under the guise of C&Rs.
In the not-too-distant future Judge Silver will issue her order and I suspect USAPA will be found guilty again of DFR. And, the remedy will likely be ordering the union to implement the Nicolau Award. In addition, Judge Silver could order civil damages be paid by the East pilots to the West pilot class and agree with US Airways' Summary Judgement that the Addington plaintiffs and West Pilot Class have their own seat at the M-B SLI table. Finally, APA will likely become the agent for all New American pilots in the near-term and they will take control of this process.
1. The submission of a dispute to an unbiased third person designated by the parties to the controversy, who agree in advance to comply with the award—a decision to be issued after a hearing at which both parties have an opportunity to be heard. Arbitration is a well-established and widely used means to end disputes. It is one of several kinds of Alternative Dispute Resolution, which provide parties to a controversy with a choice other than litigation. Unlike litigation, arbitration takes place out of court: the two sides select an impartial third party, known as an arbitrator; agree in advance to comply with the arbitrator's award; and then participate in a hearing at which both sides can present evidence and testimony. The arbitrator's decision is usually final, and courts rarely reexamine it.
USA320Pilot's comment: If USAPA is successful and disregarding a AAA final and binding Opinion & Award it makes a farce of the Dispute Resolution protocol. If a party can use its voting majority to impose its will against a minority party if it does not like an arbitration award than why even have a grievance or dispute resolution process? WHy not have a dictatorship instead?
2. The US Airways pilot's contract, LOA 96 (Transition Agreement), Section 4, at the time the Nicolau Award was issued, requires the parties to implement seniority lists per arbitrated award. When USAPA was elected as the pilots agent USAPA was bound to implement all sections and LOAs of the contract. This is why USAPA has been found guilty of DFR or will be guilty of DFR when the claim is ripe per every court.
Do I like this? No, of course not, but I do not believe it is appropriate for a majority group of people to violate contract law, violate the RLA, and attempt to impose their will on a minority group by stapling virtually an entire airline pilot group to the bottom of a joint seniority list under the guise of C&Rs.
In the not-too-distant future Judge Silver will issue her order and I suspect USAPA will be found guilty again of DFR. And, the remedy will likely be ordering the union to implement the Nicolau Award. In addition, Judge Silver could order civil damages be paid by the East pilots to the West pilot class and agree with US Airways' Summary Judgement that the Addington plaintiffs and West Pilot Class have their own seat at the M-B SLI table. Finally, APA will likely become the agent for all New American pilots in the near-term and they will take control of this process.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Remember, it was Steve Crimi that began that fight and the other Reps that joined together that got us the retroactive pay. Sorry "Traitor" that's a fact, remember that on the 30th. Merry Christmas!!!
Fellow Pilots,
I'd like to make a few comments about the recall.
There have been 17 different pilots on the BPR during Gary Hummel's Presidency. These are their names:
Bob Frear, Ron Nelson, Courtney Borman, Paul DiOrio, John Taylor, Paul Music, Bill McKee, Steve Crimi, DeWitt Ingram, Steve Szpyrka, Mike Gillies, Jamie Weidner, John Scherff, Dave Simmons, Roger Velez, Joe Stein, Pete Dugstad.
Of those, 3 oppose the recall: Joe Stein, Pete Dugstad, Jamie Weidner.
Please let the numbers sink in...14 of the 17 pilots who have worked with Gary Hummel as President support the recall. I won't attempt to speak for the PHX Reps., but I can tell you with 100% confidence that the 11 east Reps. who support the recall are doing so because they sincerely believe it is in your best interest to change leadership before Gary has a chance to do any more harm. It's really that simple.
I am pointing this out as a result of the unmitigated hogwash, including outright lies, coming from Gary Hummel's camp.
Let's tackle the fear tactic being employed. If we ever get past the seniority issue, I hope Eric Ferguson lends his considerable talents to helping all New American pilots. He is intelligent, engaging and an excellent strategic thinker. But, he will not be the next USAPA President. That is unless the majority east pilots suddenly decide to embrace the Nicolau award. Remember that the east pilots potentially "splitting the vote" does nothing to help him get elected. It does not matter if Eric runs against only 1 east pilot or 100. To get elected he would need to capture 50% +1 of the total votes no matter how many candidates the votes are divided amongst. So please don't let the lie about Eric Ferguson being elected President be an issue at all. It will not happen.
I am attempting to focus on the issues and not the personalities but I do think it worthwhile to include a few comments about the 3 pilots Gary has chosen to defend him so far. They are all quite infamous. If the result of the CLT recall attempt was a good barometer, they are also all clearly in the minority politically. Two of these pilots harmed us greatly during MOU negotiations by their heavy involvement in the CLT recall attempt and one of those two was instrumental in the loss of our pensions. The 3rd was the incumbent PHL Vice Chairman who was basically tossed out of office in favor of Paul DiOrio who soundly defeated him in the first round of voting by nearly a 2 to 1 margin. Can't Gary find anyone more universally respected by the pilots who is willing to defend him? I find this very interesting.
Ignore the nonsense. 14 of 17 Representatives are recommending a recall including 11 of the 14 east Reps. The choice has been given to the pilots with these leaders' recommendation to recall. That is democracy.
Steve Crimi
RECALL HUMMEL NOW!!!!!
Fellow Pilots,
I'd like to make a few comments about the recall.
There have been 17 different pilots on the BPR during Gary Hummel's Presidency. These are their names:
Bob Frear, Ron Nelson, Courtney Borman, Paul DiOrio, John Taylor, Paul Music, Bill McKee, Steve Crimi, DeWitt Ingram, Steve Szpyrka, Mike Gillies, Jamie Weidner, John Scherff, Dave Simmons, Roger Velez, Joe Stein, Pete Dugstad.
Of those, 3 oppose the recall: Joe Stein, Pete Dugstad, Jamie Weidner.
Please let the numbers sink in...14 of the 17 pilots who have worked with Gary Hummel as President support the recall. I won't attempt to speak for the PHX Reps., but I can tell you with 100% confidence that the 11 east Reps. who support the recall are doing so because they sincerely believe it is in your best interest to change leadership before Gary has a chance to do any more harm. It's really that simple.
I am pointing this out as a result of the unmitigated hogwash, including outright lies, coming from Gary Hummel's camp.
Let's tackle the fear tactic being employed. If we ever get past the seniority issue, I hope Eric Ferguson lends his considerable talents to helping all New American pilots. He is intelligent, engaging and an excellent strategic thinker. But, he will not be the next USAPA President. That is unless the majority east pilots suddenly decide to embrace the Nicolau award. Remember that the east pilots potentially "splitting the vote" does nothing to help him get elected. It does not matter if Eric runs against only 1 east pilot or 100. To get elected he would need to capture 50% +1 of the total votes no matter how many candidates the votes are divided amongst. So please don't let the lie about Eric Ferguson being elected President be an issue at all. It will not happen.
I am attempting to focus on the issues and not the personalities but I do think it worthwhile to include a few comments about the 3 pilots Gary has chosen to defend him so far. They are all quite infamous. If the result of the CLT recall attempt was a good barometer, they are also all clearly in the minority politically. Two of these pilots harmed us greatly during MOU negotiations by their heavy involvement in the CLT recall attempt and one of those two was instrumental in the loss of our pensions. The 3rd was the incumbent PHL Vice Chairman who was basically tossed out of office in favor of Paul DiOrio who soundly defeated him in the first round of voting by nearly a 2 to 1 margin. Can't Gary find anyone more universally respected by the pilots who is willing to defend him? I find this very interesting.
Ignore the nonsense. 14 of 17 Representatives are recommending a recall including 11 of the 14 east Reps. The choice has been given to the pilots with these leaders' recommendation to recall. That is democracy.
Steve Crimi
RECALL HUMMEL NOW!!!!!
prechilill
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2002
- 2,544
- 3,406
"We've dealt with a lot of challenges over the years, but the dysfunction and dirty politics which now seem to permeate USAPA's governing body has reached a level that we have not witnessed before at USAPA. It is truly sad to see just how much we have returned to the practices of our former bargaining agent."
So, maybe the problem isn't the name on the union door but the inhabitants behind the door. Jeez you easties are stupid. This is so much fun to watch!
So, maybe the problem isn't the name on the union door but the inhabitants behind the door. Jeez you easties are stupid. This is so much fun to watch!
What's the old saying? Takes one to know one? One of your golden oldies:prechilill said:
"Ripeness is a given- all parties of interest except one think so.
Injunction issued by July
POR August 31
West pilots take 330 captain bids in Fall.
USAPA gone by December
A few disgruntled AFO easties try to sue the APA and the company- case goes nowhere. Eventually, interest wanes as the AFOs retire, see the futility in their efforts and realize they need to purchase a small piece of land with a trailer on it to afford retirement.
A sad ending for such a bitter group"
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