Nov/Dec 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

More on topic:
Will a panel of 3 Arbitrators unanimously agree (1) to include an LLC (2) that neither is a party to the arbitration agreement (3) nor has any standing under the RLA (4) which gave them the MB authority in the first place (5) ?

The LLC will have authority and standing if Silver grants them such and until it is removed by the higher court.

I will be surprised - no, shocked - if the NMB parachutes in to stop this development.

Use any metaphor you wish, but the west class is getting a foot in the door/nose under the tent status which may be difficult to entirely dislodge, eliminate or reverse later in the process.

 

[Keroseneuser]

My opinion is that it was a mistake to not attend the meeting.   This whole thing is digging new ground everyday,  a 3 way is one of the ways this can go.    Given the way the MOU is written and that we all voted on it I don't think you are going to see any court try to force the NIC.  So the major issue that the east has is removed from the field.
 
The logical outcome would be a 3 way using the 3 sen. lists as they appear on December 9th.   During the 3 way we all know the west is going to try a land grab of AA widebodies, attrition, and capt. seats just like they have done for all this time.  Before its done we are going to have some on the west running around telling everybody how they "saved American"   The arrogant posting on the AA board a while back "Introducing AA to America west" thread shows that some over there already have that mentality towards this merger.    The AA folks were not amused.
 
USAPA should have been at the meeting no matter how they felt about the subject of west attendance.   History has shown that AOL cannot help themselves,  their greed is going to show through very early in the process,  I suspect there is a good chance that greed stuck its head up in the meeting on Friday for APA to get a good look at.   I would not worry about that,  the AA guys I know that commute on us and see both east and west crews are very aware of  the issue.
 
Now the issue I am worried about is USAPA getting all wrapped up in this stupid recall in the 4th quarter of the game at the 2 minute warning,  combined with a conversation that I saw on here between an east guy and an AA guy about widebodies.  Sadly we have some tools on the east that are just as bad as the AOL crowd.   I know they are the minority on the east and most of the line pilots on the east just want to protect what they are bringing into the merger.  
 
Look at it this way, we know in a 3 way situation we are going to have AOL in one corner screaming NIC at us and telling AA how they deserve to be instant captains on AA metal.....its in their DNA.    What we don't need is USAPA too busy fighting among themselves or sulking in the corner about west attendance to even notice that something important is going on.
 
Just my 2 cents. 

 

[A320 Driver]

I recall that someone here predicted a 3 way If and when Silver finally issues her ruling and if she grants separate status to the west, then until the 9th rules otherwise, we have a 3 way. I would speculate that this is what the UCC wanted all along. We already know this is what the company wants. This is what a large minority of our pilot group (which feels put upon) wants and this is what Silver would like to deliver (based on her rhetoric this past year).

Bold predictions regarding RLA law and NMB lawyers parachuting in to nip things in the bud remain to be seen, but it's getting late. Unless an immediate injunction is issued after Silver rules, USAPA must formulate a 3 way game plan. This is called a plan B.

I hope we have one this time. Being absent from the first protocol meeting indicates we don't have one yet.

Instead, we are already being distracted by a self destructive recall circus.

Through no fault of his own, our president suffered a heart attack and can no longer fly an airplane. Exceptional times require exceptions. I prefer he continue to fly our union.

'84

Well said...

 

[luvthe9]

coward:  A person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.  synonyms:  weakling, milksop, namby-pamby, mouse.
 
What else can you call someone that sits behind a keyboard to trash and lie about someone else and then in a cowardly fashion, refuses to sign his name?
 
'VoteNoJoe' is none other than Mark King.  How do I know?  Because in the world of high tech, people smarter than I am and obviously smarter than Mark King traced the email address of 'VoteNoJoe' to Mark King.
 
And Mark King purports to want you to believe he knows what's best for us and vote to continue to keep Gary Hummel from being recalled.
 
Does he defend Gary's record of secret meetings, back door deals, close relationship with Parker and Kirby, refusing to abide by the USAPA Constitution and by-laws with his medical condition, include and allow the BPR to participate in the negotiations?  No.  Mark King trashes me and others, instead.
 
Let's look at how this guy is so out of touch with reality.  He claims I am on the communications committee.  I have not been on the communications committee since before Gary took office years ago.  Why would I be allowed on the committee by Gary when I didn't support him to begin with and I have been critical of his tenure?  Makes no sense to me?  Does it make sense to you?  All you have to do is check?
 
King claims I am suggesting that we recall Hummel, vote Ferguson in, recall Ferguson and vote in Bill McKee.  Are you following all that?  Back during the last election.  Someone on this website suggested this tactic.  They felt they could not do an adequate job of writing it so they asked me to put it out there.  I never thought the idea had merit, but I did as I was asked.  Everyone is entitles to their opinion and this person asked me to help with his.  I put it out there, it fell flat on it's face as I expected and that was the end of it.  So, Let me take this one from the back to the front.  I have not talked to Bill McKee since I went to the PIC trial back in May, 2013.  I have no idea if he would even want the job, but I do not contemplate supporting him.  There are people ready to run that are not political and would not divide this pilot group the way Bill probably would, only because the Hummel bunch would see to it.
 
So, electing Ferguson so we could recall him would make no sense from a time standpoint either.  If Fergie (I hope he hates that name) got into office, by the time a recall could be mounted, he could and would do everything he could to hurt USAPA and the east's position.
 
King suggested that I believe we should talk to Fergie.  Absolutely.  I am in favor of every east pilot going to him and demand answers as to why he believes he has the right to take the jobs away from pilots that earned them and hand them to pilots that have not?
 
The bottom line is that when someone obviously as bitter and underhanded as Mark King is, we should never allow him to persuade us to do anything.  By hiding behind that keyboard, he loses the right to be relevant and persuasive.  When you state your position, you should have the guts and courage to tell everyone who you are so they know your credentials.  Mark King has hidden so you won't know who he is.  That should bring up a question about who is Mark King?  Mark ran for office with USAPA on several occasions and has been soundly defeated each time by the pilots here and then he quit USAPA.  Now he hides behind door number one and tells you who to vote for and trashes people that have the courage to tell you the truth. 
 
But here is also a disturbing thought.  Where did he get your email address?  This site is made up of people that asked to be placed on it.  The addresses he got had to come from the union.  Once again we see how Gary Hummel plays ball.  Once again he works behind the scene stripping the BPR from the right to communicate with you while he uses USAPA to communicate through Mark King and VoteNoJoe.
 
I don't understand how anyone thinks this behavior should be allowed to continue, but if we don't remove Gary, we sanction it.
 
Mark, go back to being bitter quietly.  'VoteNoJoe' needs to go back on his "Yes, I am on my Meds again."
 
Proudly Signed,  Bill Glynn
 

 

[Pi brat]

 
I did for a year, section 29 firing threatening tough guy.

But in the end you paid instead of standing up for what you really believed. Integrity in action.
 
I'm not threatening firing, I don't have the authority to fire anyone.

 

[Phoenix]

My opinion is that it was a mistake to not attend the meeting.   ...

 
 
Perhaps, but plan B can simply be to force us all to arbitration and screw American pilots as hard as possible by elevating the AWA pilots as high as possible.  

 

[snapthis]

My opinion is that it was a mistake to not attend the meeting.   This whole thing is digging new ground everyday,  a 3 way is one of the ways this can go.    Given the way the MOU is written and that we all voted on it I don't think you are going to see any court try to force the NIC.  So the major issue that the east has is removed from the field.
 
The logical outcome would be a 3 way using the 3 sen. lists as they appear on December 9th.   During the 3 way we all know the west is going to try a land grab of AA widebodies, attrition, and capt. seats just like they have done for all this time.  Before its done we are going to have some on the west running around telling everybody how they "saved American"   The arrogant posting on the AA board a while back "Introducing AA to America west" thread shows that some over there already have that mentality towards this merger.    The AA folks were not amused.
 
USAPA should have been at the meeting no matter how they felt about the subject of west attendance.   History has shown that AOL cannot help themselves,  their greed is going to show through very early in the process,  I suspect there is a good chance that greed stuck its head up in the meeting on Friday for APA to get a good look at.   I would not worry about that,  the AA guys I know that commute on us and see both east and west crews are very aware of  the issue.
 
Now the issue I am worried about is USAPA getting all wrapped up in this stupid recall in the 4th quarter of the game at the 2 minute warning,  combined with a conversation that I saw on here between an east guy and an AA guy about widebodies.  Sadly we have some tools on the east that are just as bad as the AOL crowd.   I know they are the minority on the east and most of the line pilots on the east just want to protect what they are bringing into the merger.  
 
Look at it this way, we know in a 3 way situation we are going to have AOL in one corner screaming NIC at us and telling AA how they deserve to be instant captains on AA metal.....its in their DNA.    What we don't need is USAPA too busy fighting among themselves or sulking in the corner about west attendance to even notice that something important is going on.
 
Just my 2 cents.

That sounds exactly like what Us Air told United back around 2000.. How they were going to take the United 777's. United pilots asked me about this while when did contract training in Denver when it looked like Douggie was making a run at them. They were relieved that they hooked up with Continental rather than Airways.

It's the East that is the problem. The West is trying not to get trampled on by malcontents who had no intention of abiding by arbitration if they were not awarded their windfall of replacing actively going pilots with furloughed pilots. They always had that 2/3 majority card to play. That's exactly what you did thus wasting an arbitrator's time along with pilot neutrals.

West pilots organized against the cram-down that was coming our way. USAPA tried to claim West pilots were criminals with RICO and false ID theft charges. Good thing that West pilots are well organized, otherwise we'd be victims of the land grab coming our way which threatened United in the past.

Our fight is not with AA. It's with those who have evaded arbitration resulting in furloughs and stagnation for the Weet yet growth and hiring on the East. It's no surprise that flying shift East to those willing to fly under a bankrupt company's contract. The West was on a higher payscale and the number crunchers took advantage of the East hissy fit.

It's in our DNA to fight those who want to silence a minority. It is in our DNA to demand justice by keeping USAPA in court all these years. It is in our DNA to have a tea party with USAPA. We refuse to be taxed and not represented.

 

[Reed Richards]

Come on you guys, pay attention. There is a reason I am leaving the board on the 30th (maybe on Friday if the Credit Union posts early) and it is not because of "getting paid." This has been entertainment for me for over a decade. Problem is I see day after day guys come here as apparently their only source of information. SOME of you are not even reading the stuff your own (not LEO) union sends out. It is no longer fun, especially when so many for so long NOT paying attention really starts to affect my career. 
 
Did any of you not read the Merger Committee update a few days ago???:
 
 "On Thursday, December 19, in compliance with the MOU direction regarding the Seniority List Integration (SLI) timeline, representatives from your Merger Committee met in Washington with representatives of the APA Seniority Integration Committee. We discussed language for the Protocol Agreement which will govern major aspects of the upcoming SLI process. This is the 1st phase of the Seniority Integration process as defined in the MOU Timeline.
 
The exchange was friendly, frank and productive. We will continue to exchange draft language during the holidays and have scheduled additional meeting dates in early January. Your Board was briefed by the Merger Committee earlier this month on our initial draft of the Protocol Agreement at the most recent quarterly meeting in Charlotte, with the understanding they would approve any final language."
 
Our guys attended the MOU directed meeting, and I hear it went well.  Our guys did NOT attend the circus meeting with Parker.  What part of “there is only one bargaining agent” do you guys not get after all this time?  This is no time to cave.  Every meeting Parker has with LEO is a GOOD thing. The more the better. Just wait.
 
Despite the malcontents that would throw our union into turmoil during the end game, our union is doing a great job. Trust me, what is going on here in regard to “who is the bargaining agent” will have consequences outside the Ninth, Silver’s court, and the MOU process.  For those of you that think we should “cave now” on a seat at the table, I can assure you our Officers and Legal do not agree.
 
 If you guys want to join the lemmings off the cliff, recall the President, bring LEO to the table, and have a nice Kum Ba Ya.  Then you are in DiOrio’s and Frear’s camp. There is a reason they sold out the Founder to LEO.  There is a reason Frear promotes the NIC. Have at it.  You all get what you deserve.
 
Oh yeah, all that aside, Merry Christmas.
 
RR
 
 
 
 

 

[Pi brat]

That sounds exactly like what Us Air told United back around 2000.. How they were going to take the United 777's. United pilots asked me about this while when did contract training in Denver when it looked like Douggie was making a run at them. They were relieved that they hooked up with Continental rather than Airways.

It's the East that is the problem. The West is trying not to get trampled on by malcontents who had no intention of abiding by arbitration if they were not awarded their windfall of replacing actively going pilots with furloughed pilots. They always had that 2/3 majority card to play. That's exactly what you did thus wasting an arbitrator's time along with pilot neutrals.

West pilots organized against the cram-down that was coming our way. USAPA tried to claim West pilots were criminals with RICO and false ID theft charges. Good thing that West pilots are well organized, otherwise we'd be victims of the land grab coming our way which threatened United in the past.

Our fight is not with AA. It's with those who have evaded arbitration resulting in furloughs and stagnation for the Weet yet growth and hiring on the East. It's no surprise that flying shift East to those willing to fly under a bankrupt company's contract. The West was on a higher payscale and the number crunchers took advantage of the East hissy fit.

It's in our DNA to fight those who want to silence a minority. It is in our DNA to demand justice by keeping USAPA in court all these years. It is in our DNA to have a tea party with USAPA. We refuse to be taxed and not represented.

BS. We never even got that far with UA. One guy says "Where can I get my 747 manual?" and the Marvins freaked out.
 
Yeah they got the pretty girl, but they still aren't happy! They are the most complaining pilot group in the nation. Did you notice what they wanted with a CO merger? Their tune really changed from 2000.
 
It's in your DNA. Geez, delusions of grandeur.  That's not all that's in YOUR DNA.

 

[snapthis]

BS. We never even got that far with UA. One guy says "Where can I get my 747 manual?" and the Marvins freaked out.
 
Yeah they got the pretty girl, but they still aren't happy! They are the most complaining pilot group in the nation. Did you notice what they wanted with a CO merger? Their tune really changed from 2000.
 
It's in your DNA. Geez, delusions of grandeur.  That's not all that's in YOUR DNA.

Tell me, when you pull out that mirror, how does it feel to reflect on an individual who lacks the integrity to do the right thing and abide by his agreement? You are a cheat. You sided with those who took the low road.

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on."
Led Zeppelin

 

[Pi brat]

BS. We never even got that far with UA. One guy says "Where can I get my 747 manual?" and the Marvins freaked out.
 
Yeah they got the pretty girl, but they still aren't happy! They are the most complaining pilot group in the nation. Did you notice what they wanted with a CO merger? Their tune really changed from 2000.
 
It's in your DNA. Geez, delusions of grandeur.  That's not all that's in YOUR DNA.[/quote

Tell me, when you pull out that mirror, how does it feel to reflect on an individual who lacks the integrity to do the right thing and abide by his agreement? You are a cheat. You sided with those who took the low road.

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on."
Led Zeppelin

Oh no you didn't. Quoting the authority of all the is good and pure, Led Zeppelin. Now I really feel bad. You are just goofy.
 
What agreement didn't I abide by?

 

[EastUS1]

Tell me, when you pull out that mirror, how does it feel to reflect on an individual who lacks the integrity to do the right thing and abide by his agreement? You are a cheat. You sided with those who took the low road.

"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on."
Led Zeppelin

 
"You'se" are just some pathetic narcissist and delusionally self-styled "spartan" that seeks to gain a decade or more of faux "seniority" over others who've actually worked for and EARNED it. Seriously and very honestly: I wouldn't trust such as yourself with an unattended wallet, or even visible loose change lying around...Period.
 
Go print up some more "Integrity Matters" T-shirts, if it helps at all...and since Led Zeppelin's the best you've got for a philosophical foundation...well...you've my full and proper sympathy.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Snap, My quote function is still not working,  but you stated that the flying transferred east because of our lower pay scale.    It was your side that DEMANDED that we not be brought up to parity with the west  causing Parker to have that option.   At the time you figured it was a good way to put pressure on the east to accept the NIC and complete your land grab of our seats and attrition.   In hind sight that greedy play ended up biting you in the butt.  If we were all on the same paycale all these years you might still have Vegas as a base and who knows what else Parker would have put on the west.
 
I do not agree with the RICO crap and all that USAPA has done.   But I sat there and listened to a west "friend" who was hired in 2003 go on a long rant about how he "deserved' to be able to bid an east a/b Capt. slot since some bozo somewhere told him prior to the merger that he was going to be a Captain in 4 years.  At the time the junior capt on the east was something like a 1987 hire.   
 
That is nothing but pure greed and no amount of B/S that you can spew out will change that fact. 
 
I guess now is when you will post that same tired old garbage about how you saved usairways and if it had not been for your supreme personal sacrifice you would now be flying all our routes and airplanes anyway after buying up the pieces.    Go push your greed soaked filth on the AA guys,  as I am sure it will come to sooner or later when they tell you to go pound sand on your inevitable land grab try with them.

 

[EastUS1]

  Go push your greed soaked filth on the AA guys,  as I am sure it will come to sooner or later when they tell you to go pound sand on your inevitable land grab try with them.

 
Indeed. If they get the chance to do so; it would be an amusing show to see.

 

[Ames]

Come on you guys, pay attention. There is a reason I am leaving the board on the 30th (maybe on Friday if the Credit Union posts early) and it is not because of "getting paid." This has been entertainment for me for over a decade. Problem is I see day after day guys come here as apparently their only source of information. SOME of you are not even reading the stuff your own (not LEO) union sends out. It is no longer fun, especially when so many for so long NOT paying attention really starts to affect my career. 
 
Did any of you not read the Merger Committee update a few days ago???:
 
 "On Thursday, December 19, in compliance with the MOU direction regarding the Seniority List Integration (SLI) timeline, representatives from your Merger Committee met in Washington with representatives of the APA Seniority Integration Committee. We discussed language for the Protocol Agreement which will govern major aspects of the upcoming SLI process. This is the 1st phase of the Seniority Integration process as defined in the MOU Timeline.
 
The exchange was friendly, frank and productive. We will continue to exchange draft language during the holidays and have scheduled additional meeting dates in early January. Your Board was briefed by the Merger Committee earlier this month on our initial draft of the Protocol Agreement at the most recent quarterly meeting in Charlotte, with the understanding they would approve any final language."
 
Our guys attended the MOU directed meeting, and I hear it went well.  Our guys did NOT attend the circus meeting with Parker.  What part of “there is only one bargaining agent” do you guys not get after all this time?  This is no time to cave.  Every meeting Parker has with LEO is a GOOD thing. The more the better. Just wait.
 
Despite the malcontents that would throw our union into turmoil during the end game, our union is doing a great job. Trust me, what is going on here in regard to “who is the bargaining agent” will have consequences outside the Ninth, Silver’s court, and the MOU process.  For those of you that think we should “cave now” on a seat at the table, I can assure you our Officers and Legal do not agree.
 
 If you guys want to join the lemmings off the cliff, recall the President, bring LEO to the table, and have a nice Kum Ba Ya.  Then you are in DiOrio’s and Frear’s camp. There is a reason they sold out the Founder to LEO.  There is a reason Frear promotes the NIC. Have at it.  You all get what you deserve.
 
Oh yeah, all that aside, Merry Christmas.
 
RR
 
 
 
 

My guess the real reason you are leaving the board is that the writing is on the wall and you are about to face the Nicolau list put into effect.  You can't handle the reality.  It's the whole reason I have come back to this board..... to witness the east reaction/implosion.  Promises to provide all of the enjoyment we Westies have been waiting for.