Nov/Dec 2013 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

Unfortunately you are guilty by association. Thats the way it is. I didn't like the UA contract as i said it would set us back. But,  we must go forward. Lessons learned. Maybe we must set the industry on the right path. Stay Focused ! lets do this. 

I don't think the lesson was learned so I will disagree with you on this.  Prez can't answer a simple question and seemed to justify the UA contract and stumbles on direct questions about it.   I only ask the question because the answer to it is obvious that the UA contract blows.  The United NC was convincing that they wouldn't settle for what they did. Then they all flipped like pancakes and said this was the best that they were going to get and it included full time commitments and 98% guarantees.  The members know the truth now but only after 'great pain'.   I'm not saying I'm right mike, maybe this NC is different and will buck when Delaney blows smoke up all of our arses and claims the NMB this or the company that.  Respect must be earned and thus far this bunch has struck out twice.  First at HAL.  Not surprisingly, the United members said it would never happen to them.  Then it did.   Let's hope it doesn't happen to our people at US AIRWAYS.  These guys are our reps, it doesn't mean we have to be loyal to them but that they have to be loyal to our wants and needs.  We are paying them.  Just like an attorney, broker, realtor. Assume nothing with any rep, whether it is me, them or whoever. Lesson learned?  I hope you are right but imo the jury is simply still out.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Charlie,
 
They have no clue what's it's like to be in negotiations, it would be nice to take Tim in there as an observer, since he has NEVER been on a Negotiating Committee before, but he cant be trusted.

700UW,
I didn't have to be on the negotiation team to know that NC has failed. I see the witness of their work. In fact, none of the United people had to be in negotiations to now understand that the contract was a fraud.  That said, nobody asked the NC to lie to folks.  Regardless of whatever, lying is simply wrong.  And just because folks aren't on the negotiation team doesn't mean you lie to them.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I appreciate everyone's input on here, I really do. And maybe PRez or myself haven't made it clear that we are mostly in agreement with what you guys state on here. But also I would caution that just because it's stated on here, doesn't mean that's the majority. I mean we have what maybe 10 people that post regularly on here. And some people say that some have two or three different avatars. So it may not even be 10 people posting regularly. I think our biggest challenge from traveling to many stations, is keeping the members all focused and not let the company split the membership. As far as your NC is concerned, we are focused on what the membership has said. We will stay strong, I have no doubt!! Does that mean everyone will approve of the T/A that we get? Of course not. We have to do what we think is best for the membership as a WHOLE. Remember there are some posting on this board that swore Delaney would take us straight into joint negotiations like he did at UA without getting nothing beforehand. Well that hasn't happened. Even though people was 100% sure it would. We must work on keeping all of fleet focused on what's important. That's what we should be working on with these post.

I really hope it doesn't happen as you say.  Delaney went almost a full year AFTER the single carrier application was filed before he flipped and gave up the ghost, so the present course is par for the course.  The United NC wasn't strong enough, hopefully you guys are. I really hope I'm surprised.  And of course, that doesn't mean a mini contract that anyone can bring back that has drop dead dates in it or doesn't build off of the current contract without giving things up. Leverage is strong and I support most everything you guys are saying!  OTOH, anyone can bring a flimsy mini contract back that just pushes most things off. I hope that doesn't happen.

 

[mike33]

Lets see I single handily got the Early Out for Mechanic and Related when the company offered to every group in the company except the Mechanic and Related employees.
 
I campaigned for a no vote, so I did my part.
And it takes two sides to reach an agreement.

700 ur beginning to bore the ones who don't chastise you. Give it a rest and stop moonwalking already.  We know you can dance?.....We got it .... we really do!

 

[charlie Brown]

Tim
I do think the leverage is there. In fact now I actually think that time is on our side due to the company needing to realize synergies and wanting to combine operations. We just have to remain strong. I know how the committee feels about staying in section 6. I don't see us flipping as you would put it. That's all I can tell you. I know you may not believe that, I understand. And I don't mind saying I'm wrong if I am. But I don't see this committee flipping. We're running a marathon here, not a sprint. But I am a little concerned about our members getting impatient and settling, which is what the company is hoping for.

 

[mike33]

I don't think the lesson was learned so I will disagree with you on this.  Prez can't answer a simple question and seemed to justify the UA contract and stumbles on direct questions about it.   I only ask the question because the answer to it is obvious that the UA contract blows.  The United NC was convincing that they wouldn't settle for what they did. Then they all flipped like pancakes and said this was the best that they were going to get and it included full time commitments and 98% guarantees.  The members know the truth now but only after 'great pain'.   I'm not saying I'm right mike, maybe this NC is different and will buck when Delaney blows smoke up all of our arses and claims the NMB this or the company that.  Respect must be earned and thus far this bunch has struck out twice.  First at HAL.  Not surprisingly, the United members said it would never happen to them.  Then it did.   Let's hope it doesn't happen to our people at US AIRWAYS.  These guys are our reps, it doesn't mean we have to be loyal to them but that they have to be loyal to our wants and needs.  We are paying them.  Just like an attorney, broker, realtor. Assume nothing with any rep, whether it is me, them or whoever. Lesson learned?  I hope you are right but imo the jury is simply still out.

Well i hope you are wrong and the lesson has been learned. There will be a price on all of this but we as US must stick to our course. Thats all I'm saying and I'm reiterating those sentiments to the NC so they can feel comfortable in fighting the good fight.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim
I do think the leverage is there. In fact now I actually think that time is on our side due to the company needing to realize synergies and wanting to combine operations. We just have to remain strong. I know how the committee feels about staying in section 6. I don't see us flipping as you would put it. That's all I can tell you. I know you may not believe that, I understand. And I don't mind saying I'm wrong if I am. But I don't see this committee flipping. We're running a marathon here, not a sprint. But I am a little concerned about our members getting impatient and settling, which is what the company is hoping for.

+10000000000
 
Members will always be impatient because management tries to starve them out, that's why communication is vital.  Management probably going around starting rumors about how it presented great contracts and you guys turned it down.  That's always in the management playbook.   Heck, I heard the other day that you guys turned down $2.50 pay raise and that made a few members uncomfortable until I explained to them that if anything got turned down it was probably to save jobs and for good reason.   Just gotta stick to your guns and that will necessarily include a big dose of continual communications.  Management will subtly work hard to stir the pot.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Well i hope you are wrong and the lesson has been learned. There will be a price on all of this but we as US must stick to our course. Thats all I'm saying and I'm reiterating those sentiments to the NC so they can feel comfortable in fighting the good fight.

I hear ya Mike

 

[ograc]

Unfortunately you are guilty by association. Thats the way it is. I didn't like the UA contract as i said it would set us back. But,  we must go forward. Lessons learned. Maybe we must set the industry on the right path. Stay Focused ! lets do this. 

One must watch what they wish or vote for. I believe the US NC is made up of members who have our best interests' in mind at US Fleet. Their doing their best and fighting the good fight. Unfortunately, all of them, in one way or another, report to or are pressurred by, the district leadership and the International. Pawns in a chess game. Accountability, for the decisions and agreements made regarding contractual negotiations at UA and eventually US, falls squarely in the laps of the District and International leadership. Not too long ago...Canale and team were the demon and Delaney and team were the deliverers. I respectfully ask; Under this International and District leadership are the members at UA and US any further ahead or better off? Grand Lodge and District 141 Officer nominations / elections upcoming in 2014. The engaged membership should consider this question before nominations and the eventual elections. Let's hope the US NC can turn this downward spiral around. The engaged membership is certainly watching. Good luck and carry on CB, PRez and the entire committee. 

 

[charlie Brown]

One must watch what they wish or vote for. I believe the US NC is made up of members who have our best interests' in mind at US Fleet. Their doing their best and fighting the good fight. Unfortunately, all of them, in one way or another, report to or are pressurred by, the district leadership and the International. Pawns in a chess game. Accountability, for the decisions and agreements made regarding contractual negotiations at UA and eventually US, falls squarely in the laps of the District and International leadership. Not too long ago...Canale and team were the demon and Delaney and team were the deliverers. I respectfully ask; Under this International and District leadership are the members at UA and US any further ahead or better off? Grand Lodge and District 141 Officer nominations / elections upcoming in 2014. The engaged membership should consider this question before nominations and the eventual elections. Let's hope the US NC can turn this downward spiral around. The engaged membership is certainly watching. Good luck and carry on CB, PRez and the entire committee.

Ograc
While I wasn't on the last negotiating team to speak of Canale, I am on this one. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but speaking for myself, I have felt no pressure other than the normal pressure you get used to on making some tough decisions. In that aspect, there is always pressure. But for the most part, I think we have a group of guys that kind of crave the pressure anyway. Or maybe if crave is not the right word, maybe I should say it doesn't bother us. The only pressure that I know I feel, and I think many on the team do, is trying to do what's right for the membership as a whole. Maybe additional pressure will come? I don't know. But I don't sweat too much about it. We all knew accepting this job, it was a no win situation. Meaning, your never gonna make everyone happy.

 

[cltrat]

CB I trust you, you have never ever given me a reason not to.

I however do not trust Delaney, I just hope he doesn't ever try to end run you guys.

 

[rockit2]

Who is the NC. What are their names and where do they work ( station, position, agent or agc)

 

[ograc]

Ograc
While I wasn't on the last negotiating team to speak of Canale, I am on this one. I'm not trying to defend anyone, but speaking for myself, I have felt no pressure other than the normal pressure you get used to on making some tough decisions. In that aspect, there is always pressure. But for the most part, I think we have a group of guys that kind of crave the pressure anyway. Or maybe if crave is not the right word, maybe I should say it doesn't bother us. The only pressure that I know I feel, and I think many on the team do, is trying to do what's right for the membership as a whole. Maybe additional pressure will come? I don't know. But I don't sweat too much about it. We all knew accepting this job, it was a no win situation. Meaning, your never gonna make everyone happy.

CB
As I stated before; I fully appreciate and respect the position you and the NC are in. Having knowledge of the historic "behind the scenes" agendas and agreements between both parties I wish the committee the best. I know the committee has every intention to stand up for what is right. Historically though, past NCs' best intentions have been hijacked, both at US and UA regarding TAs reached and eventually sold to the membership.Under these conditions, agreeing to serve on the Contract Negotiations Committee translates into political suicide. At the end of the day; each US NC member will have to decide wheather they endorse a TA, under Section 6, on a contract at US or not. After that a Trasition Agreement must be agreed to and sold to the membership. Hopefully; it won't be a repeat of the UA agreement. An agreement that promises the hemmoraging of union represented livelihoods. I believe the pressure on the entire NC will eventually come. The membership has had enough from both parties. The time is right for this NC and the membership to Lock and Load against any party who does not have the best intersests' of our group in mind.

 

[Jester]

Personally, I am not seeing a lot of impatience in PHX amongst FSAs as some are suggesting.  Plenty of questions, and to PRez's credit, he has made himself very available in breakrooms with informal Q&A sessions amongst whoever wants to join.  I think there is a sense more of annoyance at the Tempe Boys giving AA FSAs a raise and a piece of the New American with stock upon approval of the merger, but that's not translating into "hurry-up and get a contract!"
 
I don't see this as a repeat of 2008 when West eyeing sizable raises pushed through the T.A., as even the most liberal of outsourcing rules for all but the hubs would not translate into anything approaching the previous T.A. wage gains.  I am hearing more of deliberate sense of the details, and again to PRez's credit, he has been very careful in repeating the issues not related to pay raises.
 
My bigger concern as some have mentioned in the forum is what to prevent those above the NC from accepting a Management proposal which the NC rejects?  I am happy enough in the existing CBA, and any mention of outsourcing such that fleet becomes an "Alice in Wonderland" cheshire cat, where the last thing seen being the grin of just the hubs, will never get my support with a new T.A.

 

[P. REZ]

Prez,  you engaged me.  Told me you don't trust me and then asked me for my ideas. Obviously, I have no reason to trust you as well.  So now that that is out of the way, I told you one of my ideas and you bust my balls on it and label it political?  Don't ask me for my ideas any more.  But there is nothing political about suggesting that you really should redouble your efforts by reading the United TA and getting a fresh perspective as you apply it to the actions happening today.  Then, my idea for you to use it as a life application to our membership by informing the membership how tossing away part time caps will necessarily have management 'pounce' on hundreds and thousands of full timers.  I don't think a UPS style contract with 80% part time is what our membership wants but it is the exact sorta thing that management wants.   And it isn't a bad idea to consider what Kev said in a couple post ago. Do I have any unseen idea?  Any earth shattering perspective I can give you?  Nope.  At this point, you guys are saying all the right things, things that I support.   I'm not saying I can predict the future 100% but I don't think you guys are going to do what you say. I've seen this tape before.  Again, not saying I'm right, but if you can't even answer a question about the United contract then that tells me you are a bought man by Delaney. 
 
Oh, one last thing,  will you support a TA at US AIRWAYS that lessons the part time cap?  Yes or No?    Simple enough, yes? 
 
And I thought you were your own man??   Can you not answer a simple question, do you or do you not support the UA contract?  It's actually a very important question coming from someone you are representing since it gives me a better perspective on your ideas and what to expect. 
 
To be sure, yes, I admit I don't trust you.  I think you are a nice guy, but I don't trust you either.  Am I biased?  Of course, since the eboard said all the right things and did all the wrong things at United.  Yes, that makes me biased.  I really hope you surprise us though.

Tim,
 
When you are part of a team you can argue, cuss, anything you want to get your opinion heard but when you are part of a team you don't go throw the rest of the team under the bus if the team agrees on something else. What kind of respect do you build when you throw individuals under said bus? I am not going to get in a back and forth discussion in this forum on these issues. For you to claim I am bought because I won't discuss on this forum is a punk move. I have always fought hard to advance the wages and benefits of employees I represented at AW and now US. Been involved for almost 20 years starting with organizing in the mid 90's. Most of my career was unpaid so I don't need to prove my dedication to the cause.  
 
What I am willing to do is to get in a one on one conversation with you or anybody else discussing issues with US or the industry and possible solutions. I am always thinking about how things could be better and realize that somebody other than me may have the solution. 
 
Regarding part time caps, don't think you need to worry about that.
 
P. Rez