New Card Drive Started @ AA--Mechanic and Related

[SWAMECH]

*heavy sigh* its good to see you still don't know a single thing about the AMFA strike. Let me make it really clear for you, AMFA at NWA is why you have a job. AMFA at NWA is why I have a job. AMFA at NWA is why every mechanic working for a major US airline outside of the top 1,500 or so of their seniority lists have jobs. If they would have pulled a TWU and just rolled and signed the contract NWA was offering it would have effectively ended any kind of airline maintenance in this country outside of line maintenance at the hubs and maybe some larger cities. You really should post less and research more because its painfully clear you are so ignorant to this industry it isn't funny. Hehe Haha Its really funny those guys at NWA lost everything to make sure the airlines could force that abomination of a contract on everyone else via the bankruptcy judge, but im guessing you don't even know how any of that works either.
Oh and yes, Delta has over the years had a few AMFA card drives and if I remember right a vote right around bankruptcy time. Fact is, after NWAMFA no union has shown Delta's mechanics any reason to go union. Everything at Delta is either comparable or better than the union peps. As far as outsourcing or insourcing goes, Delta is the only US airline that is doing any kind of meaningful investing in the business to make sure they continue to do work on Delta and customer airplanes well into the future and on the next generation of airplanes.
Delta is the only US airline to have engine agreements for 3 out of the 6 next generation engines coming on to the market and is working on a fourth. (Pratt GTF, Trent 1000/7000, Trent XWB are already in, sounds like CFM LEAP at least 1B but i expect them to do 1As as well)
American outsources all of that.
United outsources all of that.
Not to mention all the other things Delta has been working on insourcing across Technical Operations/service group. Why would I want your union? so they can outsource all of it? thats what would probably happen. Hell they would probably scab again if they company asked them too.

Second part, yet again showing you have no idea what you are talking about, your 2003 deal isn't what caused you large jump in outsourcing. Matter of fact you were fairly flat for a long time after 2003. Your big outsourcing came around 2013-2014 and have been a rocket ship since then. I was going back as far as I did to help you out. Your union, not United. Not Southwest. Not UPS. Not non-unions of Delta and Fedex.....no YOUR UNION has been the trail blazers for outsourcing in this decade. Starting with the roll over in bankruptcy and the absolute god awful contract you voted yes on for your JCBA during the US airway merger.

And we can compare today, Southwest is about ~10 points more outsourced than you. Again, they are tracking down and have slowly but surely clawing back work. I fully expect once the full consequences of your last contract come to full realization, American will be quite close, if not outsourcing more, than Southwest. I also expect you will pass United as well making you the most outsourced carrier why AMFA and the IBT (lol) has been slowly bringing in work.
And I personally hope I am around to see the mental gymnastics when you try to justify it on here and what you and the worthless unions new statistic will be to attempt to make fun of AMFA.

Well stated sir. Gave up on these yahoo's long time ago. I would be willing to bet they are even still bragging about the number of aircraft mechanics at AA and SWA and other airlines. You know, strength in numbers??? LOL what a joke, buy typical.
You know, a while back SWA was always around the 68-72% outsourcing even from day one. However as we have been growing lately and opening all the new hangars, I would be willing to bet we are lower than that now days and more like 60-65%ish of outsourcing. AMFA and SWA has both been long working on saving $$$ and where they find saving in bringing in more work in house they do in fact follow thru. Ever since AMFA and SWA started opening all the books on cost performance and efficiencies with outsourcing, as long as AMFA's attorney's and economist can show and prove cost savings, then SWA is willing to look at bringing that work in house. They (SWA) have been so much more willing to work with AMFA after our economist proved at the nego table how $$$ they could save on certain items being brought in house. Hence why all the new hangars were and are being built and we should see more come in the future as we still grow. The old attitude of SWA was just to outsource all they can as they thought they were saving $$$, now they run all the numbers first and then make a decision with the help of AMFA and their numbers compared to company numbers for going outsourced. And BTW I have no clue how much AA outsources % wise and really don't care as I don't work there.

 

[WeAAsles]

*heavy sigh* its good to see you still don't know a single thing about the AMFA strike. Let me make it really clear for you, AMFA at NWA is why you have a job. AMFA at NWA is why I have a job. AMFA at NWA is why every mechanic working for a major US airline outside of the top 1,500 or so of their seniority lists have jobs. If they would have pulled a TWU and just rolled and signed the contract NWA was offering it would have effectively ended any kind of airline maintenance in this country outside of line maintenance at the hubs and maybe some larger cities. You really should post less and research more because its painfully clear you are so ignorant to this industry it isn't funny. Hehe Haha Its really funny those guys at NWA lost everything to make sure the airlines could force that abomination of a contract on everyone else via the bankruptcy judge, but im guessing you don't even know how any of that works either.
Oh and yes, Delta has over the years had a few AMFA card drives and if I remember right a vote right around bankruptcy time. Fact is, after NWAMFA no union has shown Delta's mechanics any reason to go union. Everything at Delta is either comparable or better than the union peps. As far as outsourcing or insourcing goes, Delta is the only US airline that is doing any kind of meaningful investing in the business to make sure they continue to do work on Delta and customer airplanes well into the future and on the next generation of airplanes.
Delta is the only US airline to have engine agreements for 3 out of the 6 next generation engines coming on to the market and is working on a fourth. (Pratt GTF, Trent 1000/7000, Trent XWB are already in, sounds like CFM LEAP at least 1B but i expect them to do 1As as well)
American outsources all of that.
United outsources all of that.
Not to mention all the other things Delta has been working on insourcing across Technical Operations/service group. Why would I want your union? so they can outsource all of it? thats what would probably happen. Hell they would probably scab again if they company asked them too.

Second part, yet again showing you have no idea what you are talking about, your 2003 deal isn't what caused you large jump in outsourcing. Matter of fact you were fairly flat for a long time after 2003. Your big outsourcing came around 2013-2014 and have been a rocket ship since then. I was going back as far as I did to help you out. Your union, not United. Not Southwest. Not UPS. Not non-unions of Delta and Fedex.....no YOUR UNION has been the trail blazers for outsourcing in this decade. Starting with the roll over in bankruptcy and the absolute god awful contract you voted yes on for your JCBA during the US airway merger.

And we can compare today, Southwest is about ~10 points more outsourced than you. Again, they are tracking down and have slowly but surely clawing back work. I fully expect once the full consequences of your last contract come to full realization, American will be quite close, if not outsourcing more, than Southwest. I also expect you will pass United as well making you the most outsourced carrier why AMFA and the IBT (lol) has been slowly bringing in work.
And I personally hope I am around to see the mental gymnastics when you try to justify it on here and what you and the worthless unions new statistic will be to attempt to make fun of AMFA.

Can you please ask your Airline to update their numbers. At last count this is what’s reported.

SWA 3.5 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft
Delta 11.2 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft
American 21.7 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft.

I’ll give you United since they show 5.1

BTW you’re the one (And swamp/swmech) who wrote/writes the long diatribes. Your arms have to be tired from those mental gymnastics?

Airline Data Project

web.mit.edu

 

[WeAAsles]

Well stated sir. Gave up on these yahoo's long time ago. I would be willing to bet they are even still bragging about the number of aircraft mechanics at AA and SWA and other airlines. You know, strength in numbers??? LOL what a joke, buy typical.
You know, a while back SWA was always around the 68-72% outsourcing even from day one. However as we have been growing lately and opening all the new hangars, I would be willing to bet we are lower than that now days and more like 60-65%ish of outsourcing. AMFA and SWA has both been long working on saving $$$ and where they find saving in bringing in more work in house they do in fact follow thru. Ever since AMFA and SWA started opening all the books on cost performance and efficiencies with outsourcing, as long as AMFA's attorney's and economist can show and prove cost savings, then SWA is willing to look at bringing that work in house. They (SWA) have been so much more willing to work with AMFA after our economist proved at the nego table how $$$ they could save on certain items being brought in house. Hence why all the new hangars were and are being built and we should see more come in the future as we still grow. The old attitude of SWA was just to outsource all they can as they thought they were saving $$$, now they run all the numbers first and then make a decision with the help of AMFA and their numbers compared to company numbers for going outsourced. And BTW I have no clue how much AA outsources % wise and really don't care as I don't work there.

Bragging? A Union needs to represent people. You don’t have many people.

3.5 In House Mechanics per Aircraft at AMFA represented SWA. Worst by far among the top 4 Airlines.

You guys are even down close to JetBlue (3.1) and Spirit (2.9)

Terrible representation.

Airline Data Project

web.mit.edu

 

[topDawg]

Can you please ask your Airline to update their numbers. At last count this is what’s reported.

SWA 3.5 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft
Delta 11.2 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft
American 21.7 Maintenance Employees per Aircraft.

I’ll give you United since they show 5.1

BTW you’re the one (And swamp/swmech) who wrote/writes the long diatribes. Your arms have to be tired from those mental gymnastics?

Airline Data Project

web.mit.edu

and the pitch WeAAsles takes a huge swing! oh but he falls on his ass from the miss.

"The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure."

The airlines have nothing to do with it. As I have told you before, email the airline data project and ask them why they haven't updated the numbers.
Or pull the Form 41 data and figure it out yourself.

 

[SWAMECH]

and the pitch WeAAsles takes a huge swing! oh but he falls on his ass from the miss.

"The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure."

The airlines have nothing to do with it. As I have told you before, email the airline data project and ask them why they haven't updated the numbers.
Or pull the Form 41 data and figure it out yourself.

Hey Dawg, not sure who you speaking with lately, but some of the uneducated folks around here are NOT a/c Mechanics, they are just union thugs trying to discredit AMFA in any way possible and going so far as to spread lies, mistruths and misinformation with made up crap. I believe a couple of them are rampers or cleaners or something but NOT Mechanics FYI...

 

[WeAAsles]

and the pitch WeAAsles takes a huge swing! oh but he falls on his ass from the miss.

"The data on this website is sourced from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Form 41 data product. It has been selected and analyzed to present a view of the industry and its important trends, as well as to identify fundamental drivers of success - and in some cases, the early signs of potential failure."

The airlines have nothing to do with it. As I have told you before, email the airline data project and ask them why they haven't updated the numbers.
Or pull the Form 41 data and figure it out yourself.

topDawg claims to work for Delta Airlines as an AMT. And obviously he’s not a fan of data and maybe this explains why.

Delta is the largest non union major Air Carrier in the US. They count among the non organized their Flight Attendants, Ground Workers and Mechanics. In 2021 Delta Airlines due in part to their non union status employed roughly 83,000 people nationwide.

By comparison American Airlines being heavily unionized employed 123,000 in house in 2021.

Inline XBRL Viewer

Number of employees - American Airlines Group 2022 | Statista

In the fiscal year 2022, American Airlines Group employed around 129,700 people.

www.statista.com

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey Dawg, not sure who you speaking with lately, but some of the uneducated folks around here are NOT a/c Mechanics, they are just union thugs trying to discredit AMFA in any way possible and going so far as to spread lies, mistruths and misinformation with made up crap. I believe a couple of them are rampers or cleaners or something but NOT Mechanics FYI...

Would you “ever” care to post links to factual data that refutes anything those Rampers, Cleaners or Dog Catchers for that matter throw at you.

You’re spectacular at writing verbose diatribes devoid of any sentencing structure but you never disarm the evidence.

And AMFA discredits themselves. All I do is provide the information that makes that painfully obvious.

 

[WeAAsles]

Although I don’t want to get too far off topic here since this is not about Delta Airlines but this does again sound like one of their job within a job hope to make it to one of the big boy job schemes. Get a few years of lower pay work out of people.



And as we know Delta doesn’t want this information getting out there since they always have Unions nipping at their heels.

 

[1AA]

TWU has been at AA for how long? They have outsourced more work in those 19 years then AMFA has at Southwest......

But you don't know what you are talking about so you don't get that your **** union is one of the reasons mechanics at airlines struggle so hard to bring more work in-house.

1946

 

[1AA]

Wrong. WN outsources 80% of maintenance AA only outsources 40%.

let’s see
80% - 40%=40%.

Nothing to celebrate about 40% outsourcing.

 

[1AA]

Hey Dawg, not sure who you speaking with lately, but some of the uneducated folks around here are NOT a/c Mechanics, they are just union thugs trying to discredit AMFA in any way possible and going so far as to spread lies, mistruths and misinformation with made up crap. I believe a couple of them are rampers or cleaners or something but NOT Mechanics FYI...

And also killing the topic discussion as well as chasing people away who in the past contributed a good amount of information. Now this board is on life support. Not much activity. I visit less frequent and see that there is not much to talk about.

 

[SWAMECH]

That is their exact goal. To stop all the positive AMFA information as it makes other industrial unions look so bad.

 

[WeAAsles]

That is their exact goal. To stop all the positive AMFA information as it makes other industrial unions look so bad.

80% of your AMT work is outsourced and at SWA the company has a contractual deal with your Union that it won’t go below a minimum of 2.3 Mechanics per Aircraft which currently they’re pretty close to. Only 2.3 Mechanics compared to AA at 21.7.

Contractually can you provide something positive about that?

 

[WeAAsles]

Nothing to celebrate about 40% outsourcing.

Didn’t sound to me as if the guy was celebrating. Just pointing out that there is a major difference between 40% and 80%.

TWU/IAM at AA represents around 17,000 M&R and AMFA at SWA represents under 3,000 M&R

I can understand how you feel this information chases people away since it’s not information that supports the goal you support (AMFA)

Labor Contracts

Labor Contracts

www.swamedia.com

 

[topDawg]

topDawg claims to work for Delta Airlines as an AMT. And obviously he’s not a fan of data and maybe this explains why.

Delta is the largest non union major Air Carrier in the US. They count among the non organized their Flight Attendants, Ground Workers and Mechanics. In 2021 Delta Airlines due in part to their non union status employed roughly 83,000 people nationwide.

By comparison American Airlines being heavily unionized employed 123,000 in house in 2021.

Inline XBRL Viewer

Number of employees - American Airlines Group 2022 | Statista

In the fiscal year 2022, American Airlines Group employed around 129,700 people.

www.statista.com

Few notes.
Its Air (space) Lines. I figured three and four letter words wouldn't be that hard for you.
Second I don't know what any of that has to do with anything I posted. You said something stupid about Delta "hiding" data, i attempted to point you in the direction of the data, and you came back with whatever word vomit that is. I'm going to take that as "I don't know how to get to and read form 41 data so let me deflect."
In which case, instead of posting whatever that is, AGAIN, email the airline data project and ask them. They are nice people and wont bite, I promise.

Oh and at least pre-COVID, American was also quite a bit bigger than Delta. If I remember right something like 100-200 planes. American also was a little bit more wide body heavy which is going to = more employees even if all the other variables were the same.
With that said, American does more of its own work that requires bodies. Airframe work will also need more bodies then engines and components. I wont argue that point.

Although I don’t want to get too far off topic here since this is not about Delta Airlines but this does again sound like one of their job within a job hope to make it to one of the big boy job schemes. Get a few years of lower pay work out of people.

View attachment 16886View attachment 16887

And as we know Delta doesn’t want this information getting out there since they always have Unions nipping at their heels.


View attachment 16888

*heavy sigh*
Okay a few notes again.

Air. Lines. Two words.

Second, Delta doesn't hide the PFE program. If you don't have experience then you work as a PFE for 6 months before getting directly hired. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the same time, most of the other majors are wanting ~2 years of experience. The other thing is that most of the people in this program are still in school and/or don't have their tickets yet. PFE gives them a chance to learn and get some experience and then in a lot of cases get hired directly as an AMT instead of having to be a direct hire ASM till they get 2-3 years then being able to move up. The entire idea is it is a way for Delta to be able to hiring "greener" mechanics and not have quite as many issues as United/American/Southwest/UPS/FedEx.
Again, I'm not a huge fan of it, but the other option and what United/American are more or less doing, is sticking them at a regional for 2 years then hiring them directly. Both suck. Both ignore the entire point of the ASM type spots at the airlines but here we are.

But Delta doesn't hide it. Get on LinkedIn. They are posting **** about it all the time.

third.
DGS/Delta Global Services were the same company. DGS doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for a few years. PFEs come through Launch and STS.
The only DGS people TechOps had anything to do with were some of the retired guys that would come back as a contract/consultant deals. I'd assume you are smart enough to understand why a retired person would have to come back as a contractor/consultant.

either way, DGS is gone. I know they are still letting the retired guys come in and do some stuff, in a lot of cases its training up all the new people, but i don't know who they work for. Either way, that is yet another thing that is well known at Delta and around the industry. Sorry whoever is sending texts has no idea what they are talking about.

edit to add.
Remind me where is the PR from the TWU on doing these engines in house at American?