M and R negotiations

[700UW]

Andy Marshall isnt in the airline industry, that is the difference, never worked a day for an airline.

And the ibt wasnt able to secure anymore work for hp and bring heavy mtc back in-house.

Those are the facts.

And UPS and Fedex dont carry passengers and their dynamics are not the same.

Their structure, finances and business operations are totally different than a commercial airline.

Apples and oranges.

And UPS tried to carry passengers at one point and failed and pulled out of that venture.

 

[737823]

You have no disagreement with me that the financial & operational structure, business needs, etc are different from a passenger airline. Doesn't change the fact (as Bob has posted many times) that they still compete for the same AMT labor supply.

And the fact is you have proven yourself to be a narrow minded elitist. That isn't the first time you have denigrated the UPS workers, happy to recall more posts if you would like. I send and receive shipments at my home and office on a daily basis through UPS and my regular carrier is always courteous, friendly, and professional. They work very hard and take their jobs seriously and from what I understand receive outstanding benefits and are well compensated. Your ignorance and prejudice shows.

Josh

 

[700UW]

And UPS and FedEx outsource their heavy maintenance, their planes dont have the same cycles as a commercial aircraft, nor have the same parts and standards as a passenger plane.

I am not prejudiced at all, just pointing out how Mechanics claim they only want a mechanic negotiating for them, yet at HP a non-airline, non-mechanic was their lead negotiator, dont read anything else into it.

He never worked side by side with a mechanic, nor in the industry at all. Might as well have a dog catcher in negotiations.

 

[737823]

Same could be said of Robert Roach and Sito Pantoja, Roach isn't an AMT, hasn't worked for an airline that exists and currently represents IAM members.

Josh

 

[700UW]

The difference is they dont sit in negotiations currently,, and they worked in the industry and know the dynamics, Sito was a mechanic and Robert was Fleet Service, both have degrees in labor and took part in negotiations and representation in the airlines and have first hand knowledge and experience.

And technically they are both employees of American Airlines on Union Leave.

And Roach is General Secretary Treasurer, he doesnt directly negotiate nor represent members.

Sito is GVP of Transportation and overseas his staff of GLRs and Coordinators who work hand in hand with the Districts and their Reps who represent and negotiate.

 

[TRAVIS]

700 said: (Andy Marshall isnt in the airline industry, that is the difference, never worked a day for an airline.
And the ibt wasnt able to secure anymore work for hp and bring heavy mtc back in-house.)

Andy Marshall was the IBT Negotiations Representation helping AWA M&R HE had NO BIAS (NEUTRAL) to the outcome of the contract unlike YOU 700 who as a PARTS CLERK and would have been BIAS toward Clerks Class and looking more for what was best for YOU rather than the AMT CRAFT and am not aiming this at just you it is just human nature.

700 said: (And dont forget the only reason HP brought some stuff back in-house was the FAA made them or they were going to be shutdown.)
As I have told you time and time again, ALL out-sourcing was done before the IBT was voted in at AWA and the ( UPS package delivery driver) as YOU call him, Andy Marshall was smart enough to put Language in the IBT Contract that said if out-sourced work was brought back in house ONCE’ it stayed in house. This language got the B-CHECKS and other work that had been farmed out on black Friday at AWA two weeks before Christmas 1995, soon after that the IBT was VOTED IN.
And as I have proved to you our AWA IBT contract we made more money and more days off than USAIR IAM at the merger and if you like I can go back an cut and paste it for you.

700 said: (And UPS and Fedex dont carry passengers and their dynamics are not the same.
Their structure, finances and business operations are totally different than a commercial airline.
And UPS and FedEx outsource their heavy maintenance, their planes dont have the same cycles as a commercial aircraft, nor have the same parts and standards as a passenger plane.)
A 757 is a 757. Both UPS AMT and US AMT perform basically the same maintenance in accordance with The Maintenance Manuals and the IPC per the FAA and FAR’s for the Operation’s Certificate for that company. A AMT is a AMT.

700 said: (I am not prejudiced at all, just pointing out how Mechanics claim they only want a mechanic negotiating for them, yet at HP a non-airline, non-mechanic was their lead negotiator, dont read anything else into it.)
700 we just don’t want a bias negotiator and as I said Andy was a non-bias negotiator working for what was best for the AMT’s and their jobs and I think he did a good job with what he had to work with because the company fought us on every little thing on the contract till the point when WE WALKED OUT TO GET OUR CONTRACT. Only lasted one day and we were called back and got paid for the day. Two weeks later we had or first and last contract as we were in Negotiations at the time of the AWA/US merger just like now and Parker and the boys wanted that Peace of Sh!! CBA that the IAM used for the Transition Agreement after tacking on 3 more years on it with LOW WAGES. The IAM has failed the AMT’s and they got to GO.

700 said: (He never worked side by side with a mechanic, nor in the industry at all. Might as well have a dog catcher in negotiations.)
If the dog catcher knows how to negotiate bring him to the next IAM contract Nego’s, looks like they need help or you can call ANDY he knows how Parker and the boys play.
So after you gave the Engine IDG part to the tech and he went out in the snow/rain and laid in the wet and cold mess to install it side by side how cold was it in the stock room.
Don’t be so Proud of this POS CBA a lot of good AMT’s have been DISPLACED due to the first merger and there might be a lot more. I hope not.
P.S. you said: (As you see BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PHX, LAS and LAX are protected stations.) LAS is no longer a HUB or protected station. OK TWIST AWAY.. HAVE NICE DAY 700

 

[TRAVIS]

There are 3 airlines that are claiming that AMFA has done all the outsourcing, and they are all wrong. Here at SWA for almost 30 years it was the teamsters, not AMFA. Over at United it was the IAM that agreed to outsourcing and closures, not AMFA or the teamsters. And of course over at AA you have the TWU giving away the farm and for well over 3 decades agreeing with the company for concessions, rifs, maint closures, and bennie reductions. The reason I mention AA now is if/when AMFA replaces the TWU, everyone (mainly TWU'ers, teamsters, and IAM members) will blame AMFA for the TWU FAILURES at AA. AMFA really is the best union for the mechanics class and craft period...

Don't get me wrong I did not say AMFA had out-sourced at SWA.. Some on here will use any thing to twist things up as I said with the IAM and IBT the AMT's at SWA had a VOTE and could have said NO! to out-sourcing.
HAVE A GOOD ONE

 

[TRAVIS]

You dont even know what you are talking about,before the transition agreement they could have farmed out as much as they wanted, the new language the IAM negotiated made the company have to do 50% of heavy in-house, unlike your ibt cba where they farmed out most of your work, you only did some c-checks in-house and all other heavy checks were farmed out.

Do you even read your CBA?


As you see BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PHX, LAS and LAX are protected stations.

Do you even read the CBA you work under?

So you make this way too easy, now call Andy and see what he tells you to post next.

I WOULD THINK A MERGER IS AN EVENT.
Definition of FORCE MAJEURE
: an event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled
Definition of EVENT
: the final outcome or determination of a legal action.
: a postulated outcome, condition.
: something that happens.
: a noteworthy happening.
(Subject to force majeure provisions as
described in Article 5.F and 20.D.2.)
Quote.
(J) Company base maintenance employees will perform fifty
17 (50%) percent or greater of all aircraft base maintenance work,
18 inclusive of narrow and wide-body aircraft, as follows: On an
19 annualized basis, for every billable hour of work from aircraft base
20 maintenance vendors performing Company base maintenance
21 work; modification work; scheduled drop in maintenance; and any
22 drop-in maintenance relating to fuselage damage or any other
23 damage, there will be an equal or greater number of paid hours to
24 Company base maintenance employees. This includes Company
25 Lead Mechanics, Mechanics, Inspectors, Utility and Lead Utility
26 (combined) assigned to base maintenance

Quote

The Company will not furlough to the street any Base
18 Mechanic who is active as of the effective date of this agreement
19 provided such employee exercises their seniority to the fullest
20 extent. (Subject to force majeure provisions as described in Article
21 5.F and 20.D.2)
22 The Company shall maintain a minimum headcount of six
23 hundred seventy-five (675) active Base Maintenance Lead
24 Mechanics, Mechanics, Inspectors, Lead Utility and Utility
25 employees combined. (Subject to force majeure provisions as
26 described in Article 5.F and 20.D.2.)
As you see BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PHX, LAS and LAX are protected stations.

The IAM CBA language needs some work do you need Andy????
As I said LAS Was a HUB AND PROTECTED STATION Not No More So How Safe is PIT As a PROTECTED STATION????

 

[737823]

The difference is they dont sit in negotiations currently,, and they worked in the industry and know the dynamics, Sito was a mechanic and Robert was Fleet Service, both have degrees in labor and took part in negotiations and representation in the airlines and have first hand knowledge and experience.

And technically they are both employees of American Airlines on Union Leave.

And Roach is General Secretary Treasurer, he doesnt directly negotiate nor represent members.

Sito is GVP of Transportation and overseas his staff of GLRs and Coordinators who work hand in hand with the Districts and their Reps who represent and negotiate.

So they're really dipping their beaks big time. Let's see union salary, union benefits, union pension, positive space passes at IAM-represented carriers, AA pass benefits, and AA retiree benefits. Not bad return for the nominal dues they paid during their tenure at now defunct TWA. Can their former co-workers who had their seniority stripped of them say the same?

Is he on the AA/TWU seniority list? Since seniority is such an essential part of any union career and defines the individual, why don't Roach and Pantoja mention this in their bios? AFA went to lengths to tell everyone Pat Friend was on the United seniority list at IAD, Veda Shook's June 7, 1991 hire date is indicated too.

http://www.afanet.org/?id=38

Josh

 

[700UW]

They paid dues for over 30 years each, and then they were reps, they paid dues to the IAM Reps association.

Guess you didnt know that, now did you?

They dont get positive space at all IAM carriers, they only get it when they are traveling for union business.

And they pay for their benefits, nothing is free.

 

[swamt]

Don't get me wrong I did not say AMFA had out-sourced at SWA.. Some on here will use any thing to twist things up as I said with the IAM and IBT the AMT's at SWA had a VOTE and could have said NO! to out-sourcing.
HAVE A GOOD ONE

Actually your wrong. The AMT's did not have a vote on the outsourcing issues. This language was all drawn up by the teamsters that allowed all the outsourcing at SWA for the almost 30 years that they represented the SWA mechanics. The vote in which you are talking about, was a vote that AMFA stepped in to repair some of the teamsters language that they left with open holes and all kinds of grey areas. Even with AMFA stepping up and nego restrictions and limitations for overseas outsourcing, SWA could have very well done it with the current language the teamsters nego from years back. Either way the company was going to outsource with or with-out a fight from AMFA, from the language the teamsters left for us.

 

[TRAVIS]

Actually your wrong. The AMT's did not have a vote on the outsourcing issues. This language was all drawn up by the teamsters that allowed all the outsourcing at SWA for the almost 30 years that they represented the SWA mechanics. The vote in which you are talking about, was a vote that AMFA stepped in to repair some of the teamsters language that they left with open holes and all kinds of grey areas. Even with AMFA stepping up and nego restrictions and limitations for overseas outsourcing, SWA could have very well done it with the current language the teamsters nego from years back. Either way the company was going to outsource with or with-out a fight from AMFA, from the language the teamsters left for us.

Actually Iam Right and was talking about almost 30 years ago.
I understand AMFA has stepped in to repair some of the language to stop outsourcing and I think that is good for the industry in a whole, Also I know once you let the Company outsource it’s hard to get it back if not almost impossible.
As I said the AMT’s at SWA had a vote back 30 years ago on the Contract’s with the IAM and IBT( As they must have read the contract before voting on it.) Also am sure they did not fully understand the ramifications of the company language on outsourcing at the time because the company (SWA) used large Pay and Benefit offers at the Negations table to sway votes to what the company wanted.
(Greed is Human Nature)
I am sure Herb Kelleher knew to keep cost down his plan was to outsource some labor groups so he would Sugar Bait the contract’s with Higher Wages and Benefits to install outsource language and as you can see today SWA has the Highest Pay scale of all the airlines and is 5th but only has 3.2 AMT’s Per Aircraft in relation to UAL and US who have over 10.4 AMT’s Per Aircraft.
When you compare US AIRWAYS to SWA we lost to outsourcing at BK's that was the point I was making and comparing.
Have A Blessed Day.

 

[swamt]

Actually Iam Right and was talking about almost 30 years ago.
I understand AMFA has stepped in to repair some of the language to stop outsourcing and I think that is good for the industry in a whole, Also I know once you let the Company outsource it’s hard to get it back if not almost impossible.
As I said the AMT’s at SWA had a vote back 30 years ago on the Contract’s with the IAM and IBT( As they must have read the contract before voting on it.) Also am sure they did not fully understand the ramifications of the company language on outsourcing at the time because the company (SWA) used large Pay and Benefit offers at the Negations table to sway votes to what the company wanted.
(Greed is Human Nature)
I am sure Herb Kelleher knew to keep cost down his plan was to outsource some labor groups so he would Sugar Bait the contract’s with Higher Wages and Benefits to install outsource language and as you can see today SWA has the Highest Pay scale of all the airlines and is 5th but only has 3.2 AMT’s Per Aircraft in relation to UAL and US who have over 10.4 AMT’s Per Aircraft.
When you compare US AIRWAYS to SWA we lost to outsourcing at BK's that was the point I was making and comparing.
Have A Blessed Day.

I see. Yes your correct. I mean I wasn't here that long ago (wish I was) but yes, the way you said it is more than likely true.

 

[Just Another BK]

I WOULD THINK A MERGER IS AN EVENT.
Definition of FORCE MAJEURE
: an event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled
Definition of EVENT
: the final outcome or determination of a legal action.
: a postulated outcome, condition.
: something that happens.
: a noteworthy happening.
(Subject to force majeure provisions as
described in Article 5.F and 20.D.2.)
Quote.
(J) Company base maintenance employees will perform fifty
17 (50%) percent or greater of all aircraft base maintenance work,
18 inclusive of narrow and wide-body aircraft, as follows: On an
19 annualized basis, for every billable hour of work from aircraft base
20 maintenance vendors performing Company base maintenance
21 work; modification work; scheduled drop in maintenance; and any
22 drop-in maintenance relating to fuselage damage or any other
23 damage, there will be an equal or greater number of paid hours to
24 Company base maintenance employees. This includes Company
25 Lead Mechanics, Mechanics, Inspectors, Utility and Lead Utility
26 (combined) assigned to base maintenance

Quote

The Company will not furlough to the street any Base
18 Mechanic who is active as of the effective date of this agreement
19 provided such employee exercises their seniority to the fullest
20 extent. (Subject to force majeure provisions as described in Article
21 5.F and 20.D.2)
22 The Company shall maintain a minimum headcount of six
23 hundred seventy-five (675) active Base Maintenance Lead
24 Mechanics, Mechanics, Inspectors, Lead Utility and Utility
25 employees combined. (Subject to force majeure provisions as
26 described in Article 5.F and 20.D.2.)
As you see BOS, CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PHX, LAS and LAX are protected stations.

The IAM CBA language needs some work do you need Andy????
As I said LAS Was a HUB AND PROTECTED STATION Not No More So How Safe is PIT As a PROTECTED STATION????

Travis, no offense but you have to be a complete idiot. Most of your statements I have been reading don't make much sense and are just plain stupid. Force Majeure? That's the meaning of the noun not Law. Law states irresistible force or compulsion such as will excuse a party from performing his part of a contract, ie 9/11. If you are the brain trust behind the IBT count me out !! Pittsburgh as of the present contract is a protected heavy maintenance station where as the company will maintain a minimum headcount between Charlotte HVM and Pittsburgh HVM. Try reading a little besides comic books.

 

[TRAVIS]

FACT LAS is no longer a HUB or a PROTECTED STATION so ask the 40 or more AMT's and their families in LAS who have been DISPLACED due to operational needs and what they think of the IAM protected station language. Ask MOC in PIT how safe they feel being in a IAM protected station, For that fact any IAM protected station in a MERGER ( an event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled)(the final outcome or determination of a legal action.)is not safe do to Operational needs of the NEW Airline.
Parker could not have reasonably anticipated who US Airways was going to merge with at the time of the contract, ie UAL/DEL/CAL.

Have a good one got to go read my comic book.