Local 514 Officers - Make Fools of Themselves at AFW
- Thread starter RV4
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #92
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On 7/28/2003 5:46:36 PM twuer wrote:
Okay RV4, let's take this nice and slow. I got some info today and posted it and before you could prove it or disprove it you are calling me a liar. That's not very nice. I came to these boards looking for some solid eveidence that AMFA is the right union and have yet to get any. Many of the TWU boys (a few that you have accused me of being!! a joke in its' self)) have been putting out stat after stat of what AMFA is doing (or should I say NOT doing). You on the other hand have not. Maybe you did a while back but I have not seen any. The recent info that I have received is just another piece in the AMFA puzzle. Like I told "Bob", don't promise something that you can't deliver on. I am more than open for a good debate. I've been trying to do that since I have come to these boards but I keep having to defend myself.
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twuer,On 7/28/2003 5:46:36 PM twuer wrote:
Okay RV4, let's take this nice and slow. I got some info today and posted it and before you could prove it or disprove it you are calling me a liar. That's not very nice. I came to these boards looking for some solid eveidence that AMFA is the right union and have yet to get any. Many of the TWU boys (a few that you have accused me of being!! a joke in its' self)) have been putting out stat after stat of what AMFA is doing (or should I say NOT doing). You on the other hand have not. Maybe you did a while back but I have not seen any. The recent info that I have received is just another piece in the AMFA puzzle. Like I told "Bob", don't promise something that you can't deliver on. I am more than open for a good debate. I've been trying to do that since I have come to these boards but I keep having to defend myself.
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Are you having any luck coming up with that documented proof you are searching for?
"stat after stat" about what AMFA is or is not doing is not really of any value unless you can back it up with proof.
We have acquired some proof about how the TWU is doing compared to our fellow professionals in the industry:
[url="http://www.air-mechanic.com/industry_compare.htm"]http://www.air-mechanic.com/industry_compare.htm[/URL]
We now rank #6 in the industry in pay and benefits. What say you?
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #93
Hmmmm....
Me thinks the TWU supporters have tucked tail and ran from the debate.
Maybe they finally signed their cards once the little light bulb in their brains came on?
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
Me thinks the TWU supporters have tucked tail and ran from the debate.
Maybe they finally signed their cards once the little light bulb in their brains came on?
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #95
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On 8/1/2003 5:52:28 PM PORKCHOP wrote:
Good idea are you a mechanic or a welder.
If you are a welder maybe you should join AWFA.
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Another TWU stooge under a different alias. Welcome. How is Mr Little doing?On 8/1/2003 5:52:28 PM PORKCHOP wrote:
Good idea are you a mechanic or a welder.
If you are a welder maybe you should join AWFA.
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Want to debate the issues, or just throw personal barbs?
What I find most interesting is how the TWU supporters are always slamming the welders at AA. And we thought the TWU was the superior union. Now we know.
Tell us Mr. Stooge, why does AMT-ONLINE have an article about welders and their skill level? Could it be that you don't have a clue?
[url="http://www.amtonline.com/searchscripts/search.asp?SearchSiteURL=%5Carticles%5C2003%5Camt_0703%5C0703_04.htm"]http://www.amtonline.com/searchscripts/sea...3%5C0703_04.htm[/URL]
This Time It's Personal
Welding training at Delta's TechOps Center raises the bar
By Mike Sammons
When it comes to welding, Delta Air Lines Technical Operations Center (TOC) at Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport performs plenty, with more than 500 welding operators located there. It maintains and repairs a full range of aircraft, engines, and components including landing gear, accessories, and ground support equipment. TOC's welding training and certification program actually exceeds industry standards (AMS 1595 for aircraft welds, soon to be replaced by AWS D17.1, and AWS D1.1 for structural welds).
"We don't disregard defects on the ends of the joint even though AMS 1595 allows us to discard the last half inch. The reason is that some of our parts have ends," says Jody Collier, SCWI (Senior Certified Welding Inspector) and Delta's program manager, welding training. "Another criterion where we are stricter than the AMS standard is that we require at least one tie-in in the middle area of the joint that will be X-rayed. Stops and starts are more likely to have defects like crater cracking. Because repair welding of aircraft parts often necessitates sequence welding and stopping often in order to control heat input, we require our welding operators to demonstrate the ability to stop and start without creating defects."
Gearing up
TIG welding at TOC is far more difficult than almost any other maintenance application. Typical parts include a magnesium transfer case that costs $47,000, a 3-inch diameter, .020-inch wall titanium air duct that costs $800 per foot, and the .012-inch 157 stainless-steel skin of an exhaust sleeve on a Boeing 767 engine.
When welding on material this sensitive, operators should not be limited by the capabilities of their equipment. Unfortunately, some TOC machines were 30 to 35 years old; one machine had a serial number of 73 and another was built in 1962. Basic TIG power sources inherently last a long time, and Delta's clean operating environment further extended their life. However, just because a machine can still strike an arc doesn't mean that it should remain in use.
"We had a TIG machine from the 1980s. It had a terrible bottom end on it, about 20 or 30 amp, which doesn't lend itself to aircraft welding very well," says Robert Trudelle, TOC welding training instructor. "For example, the .012-inch exhaust sleeve is welded at 15 to 18 amps. We need something that can weld thin metals."
In addition to limitations on thin ferrous metals, older machines do not perform as well on nonferrous metals because they do not feature modern squarewave technology or incorporate advanced arc starting features (see sidebar story on page 24). Thus, at the same time TOC began intensifying its training program, it recognized the need to modernize its fleet of AC/DC TIG power sources.
Tough love
TIG welding has always been an art, but the TOC training program adds science.
Collier says that, "The structure and consistency of our training program improve welding results. Before we had too many performance highs and lows. Delta's continuous improvement team assessed the operator's skill level and our training program. As a result, they determined we needed to fund and support a world-class training program that would produce operators whose skills surpass any industry standard."
Prepared by the Hobart Institute of Welding Technology, Troy, Ohio, the TOC training program for GTAW (TIG welding) covers all the materials encountered in aircraft maintenance and repair: carbon steel, nickel-based steels, cobalt-based alloys, titanium, aluminum, and magnesium, plus the relevant alloys of these metals. A hefty training manual covers every aspect of the TIG process, TIG equipment, and welding terms and symbols. Each metal type has a chapter devoted to it, enabling the operator to learn about that alloy's welding characteristics (including an alloy data sheet), pre-weld preparations, and welding instructions. Practical exercises, such as a square groove butt joint on .020-inch titanium (Group 7: 6AL4V) or a fillet weld T-joint on .063-inch 6061-T6 aluminum, test for real-world skills.
"The training class usually consists of an eight-week course, and it combines classroom and lab experience. The classroom portion especially provides the structure we feel promotes good skill growth," notes Trudelle. The program is not easy, and it does not allow for skills to atrophy. Every operator must take and pass a re-certification test every two years.
"Because of this structure, I get a more efficient personnel draw," says Mark Nolan, lead welder, department 400 (which is responsible for engine-related repairs). "Engine manufacturers like Pratt & Whitney and General Electric specify welding requirements, and of course we have to satisfy the FAA. With operators trained on welding seven metals and tested in both the flat and vertical positions, we have a large talent pool for any job required."
Welders at TOC respect the training program not just for its results, but for the quality of its instructors. Collier and Trudelle have a combined 34 years of welding experience, much of it related to aircraft.
"Because they know aircraft components and the metallurgical properties of aircraft metals, Collier and Trudelle can apply that knowledge in training," says Charles Pierce, a welder in department 400. "They bring out our skills in ways that help us prepare for real-world challenges. That's a big difference between Delta TOC training and training you'll get anyplace else."
Welding knowledge in action
Working on the magnesium (Group 5: AZ31B) JT8 gearbox for a Boeing 727 clearly illustrates the difference between general TIG welding and TIG welding on an aircraft component.
The gearbox functions similarly to a car's transmission, except at $47,000 per half, it costs more than most cars. Like a transmission, it wears down. To salvage this expensive component, TOC welders cut out worn or damaged sections and replace them with new metal using a Syncrowave power source welding in the AC TIG mode. This buildup work, adding layer upon layer of weld metal, puts a lot of heat into the component. Unfortunately, excess heat warps the gearbox to the point where the two halves no longer match; the warped half then has to be scrapped.
"Today, we know the heat limits of this part, so we'll run a short bead then wait a few seconds for the part to cool before making the next pass," says TOC welder Vincent Brigante. "This is why it makes sense for the TOC training program to include a weld test that requires arc stops and starts."
Brigante did have problems, however, with the oil contaminating the magnesium. After spending a week adding new metal, he frequently encountered contaminated sections. Cutting out the contaminated section often meant cutting out all the new weld metal, too. Today, through proprietary welding repair techniques developed by Brigante, Trudelle, and others, Delta has eliminated this problem and extended the life of the gear box from 400 to 600 cycles to more than 12,000 cycles (a cycle is a takeoff and landing).
"Welding that gearbox got real personal," says Brigante. "We vowed never to scrap one, and we haven't scrapped one in more than 12 months."
TWUER,
What ever happened to the 29D of the Force majeure?
How about the cockpit jumpseat?
Remember ATABS? How many years did it take before the company complied with that?
Are we going to get contract books? Come on, they were probably printed up last year when the deal was really struck.
A few other things that you probably will not remember.
The company used to supply, at no cost to the employee, LTD that paid 60% of your wages, now we pay over $800/ for less coverage. That the equivelent of over a $1000 cut in pay but thats OK because doesnt the International get a kickback from the insurance company for administering the plan?
We used to have company paid health Insurance for when we retire, they negotiated that away and now we have prefunding. How will the addition of thousands of TWA guys to the plan at rates as if they paid, all along going to effect us?
We used to have eighty days IOD bank, now its down to 10 but the TWU is sponsoring another insurance plan where we can buy coverage instead, more out of pocket.
What is going to happen to our Medical now? If you thought that the paycuts were bad enough, wait, there is more. We have to come up with another $20 Million. Thats another $1250 out of pocket.
The fact is that we went from first to worst of the carriers listed on the other thread. Worst by far and we did not go BK.
AMT magazine had an article by Steve Prentice, a lawyer. Not one employed by the international. Not one representing the financial community. And not one employed by us. A neutral party. And he said that we likely would not have done worse in BK than we did trying to stay out of BK.
What ever happened to the 29D of the Force majeure?
How about the cockpit jumpseat?
Remember ATABS? How many years did it take before the company complied with that?
Are we going to get contract books? Come on, they were probably printed up last year when the deal was really struck.
A few other things that you probably will not remember.
The company used to supply, at no cost to the employee, LTD that paid 60% of your wages, now we pay over $800/ for less coverage. That the equivelent of over a $1000 cut in pay but thats OK because doesnt the International get a kickback from the insurance company for administering the plan?
We used to have company paid health Insurance for when we retire, they negotiated that away and now we have prefunding. How will the addition of thousands of TWA guys to the plan at rates as if they paid, all along going to effect us?
We used to have eighty days IOD bank, now its down to 10 but the TWU is sponsoring another insurance plan where we can buy coverage instead, more out of pocket.
What is going to happen to our Medical now? If you thought that the paycuts were bad enough, wait, there is more. We have to come up with another $20 Million. Thats another $1250 out of pocket.
The fact is that we went from first to worst of the carriers listed on the other thread. Worst by far and we did not go BK.
AMT magazine had an article by Steve Prentice, a lawyer. Not one employed by the international. Not one representing the financial community. And not one employed by us. A neutral party. And he said that we likely would not have done worse in BK than we did trying to stay out of BK.
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On 8/1/2003 4:08:48 PM RV4 wrote:
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
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Gee, do you really think that would be better than all aircraft mechanics in a BUS DRIVER'S UNION?On 8/1/2003 4:08:48 PM RV4 wrote:
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
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I thought we were all just bus drivers with tools. After all, I drive a van, and a van is kinda like a bus. And I have an A&P license and bus drivers have drivers licenses. What's the difference?
DUHHHHHH.
After all, I'm not smart enough to know whats best for me, I need Sonny Hall to tell me whats best for me.
DUHHHHHH
Do you TWU guys see how STUPID YOU LOOK. IT IS TIME TO GET OFF THE BUS!!!!
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On 8/1/2003 9:00:58 PM Bob Owens wrote:
TWUER,
What ever happened to the 29D of the Force majeure?
How about the cockpit jumpseat?
Remember ATABS? How many years did it take before the company complied with that?
Are we going to get contract books? Come on, they were probably printed up last year when the deal was really struck.
A few other things that you probably will not remember.
The company used to supply, at no cost to the employee, LTD that paid 60% of your wages, now we pay over $800/ for less coverage. That the equivelent of over a $1000 cut in pay but thats OK because doesnt the International get a kickback from the insurance company for administering the plan?
We used to have company paid health Insurance for when we retire, they negotiated that away and now we have prefunding. How will the addition of thousands of TWA guys to the plan at rates as if they paid, all along going to effect us?
We used to have eighty days IOD bank, now its down to 10 but the TWU is sponsoring another insurance plan where we can buy coverage instead, more out of pocket.
What is going to happen to our Medical now? If you thought that the paycuts were bad enough, wait, there is more. We have to come up with another $20 Million. Thats another $1250 out of pocket.
The fact is that we went from first to worst of the carriers listed on the other thread. Worst by far and we did not go BK.
AMT magazine had an article by Steve Prentice, a lawyer. Not one employed by the international. Not one representing the financial community. And not one employed by us. A neutral party. And he said that we likely would not have done worse in BK than we did trying to stay out of BK.
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Which issue of AMT was the article in?On 8/1/2003 9:00:58 PM Bob Owens wrote:
TWUER,
What ever happened to the 29D of the Force majeure?
How about the cockpit jumpseat?
Remember ATABS? How many years did it take before the company complied with that?
Are we going to get contract books? Come on, they were probably printed up last year when the deal was really struck.
A few other things that you probably will not remember.
The company used to supply, at no cost to the employee, LTD that paid 60% of your wages, now we pay over $800/ for less coverage. That the equivelent of over a $1000 cut in pay but thats OK because doesnt the International get a kickback from the insurance company for administering the plan?
We used to have company paid health Insurance for when we retire, they negotiated that away and now we have prefunding. How will the addition of thousands of TWA guys to the plan at rates as if they paid, all along going to effect us?
We used to have eighty days IOD bank, now its down to 10 but the TWU is sponsoring another insurance plan where we can buy coverage instead, more out of pocket.
What is going to happen to our Medical now? If you thought that the paycuts were bad enough, wait, there is more. We have to come up with another $20 Million. Thats another $1250 out of pocket.
The fact is that we went from first to worst of the carriers listed on the other thread. Worst by far and we did not go BK.
AMT magazine had an article by Steve Prentice, a lawyer. Not one employed by the international. Not one representing the financial community. And not one employed by us. A neutral party. And he said that we likely would not have done worse in BK than we did trying to stay out of BK.
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- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #100
We are still waiting on twuer to produce the facts about NWA layoffs and seniority required to work at MSP Maintenance Base.
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
MCI transplant
Veteran
- Jun 4, 2003
- 5,311
- 584
- Banned
- #101
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On 8/2/2003 12:46:05 AM RUM@AA wrote:
I thought we were all just bus drivers with tools. After all, I drive a van, and a van is kinda like a bus. And I have an A&P license and bus drivers have drivers licenses. What's the difference?
DUHHHHHH.
After all, I'm not smart enough to know whats best for me, I need Sonny Hall to tell me whats best for me.
DUHHHHHH
Do you TWU guys see how STUPID YOU LOOK. IT IS TIME TO GET OFF THE BUS!!!!
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HELL!!! I NEVER WANTED TO GET ON!!!!!!On 8/2/2003 12:46:05 AM RUM@AA wrote:
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On 8/1/2003 4:08:48 PM RV4 wrote:
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
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Gee, do you really think that would be better than all aircraft mechanics in a BUS DRIVER'S UNION?On 8/1/2003 4:08:48 PM RV4 wrote:
HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA! HOW ABOUT ALL MECHANICS IN A MECHANICS UNION?
----------------
I thought we were all just bus drivers with tools. After all, I drive a van, and a van is kinda like a bus. And I have an A&P license and bus drivers have drivers licenses. What's the difference?
DUHHHHHH.
After all, I'm not smart enough to know whats best for me, I need Sonny Hall to tell me whats best for me.
DUHHHHHH
Do you TWU guys see how STUPID YOU LOOK. IT IS TIME TO GET OFF THE BUS!!!!
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On 8/2/2003 9
24 PM RV4 wrote:
We are still waiting on twuer to produce the facts about NWA layoffs and seniority required to work at MSP Maintenance Base.
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
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I'm touched RV4, you missd me. Geez, can't a guy take a little time off. These boards are not my life. On 8/2/2003 9
24 PM RV4 wrote: We are still waiting on twuer to produce the facts about NWA layoffs and seniority required to work at MSP Maintenance Base.
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
----------------
As far as that info you are looking for, the numbers are coming in as we speak. I got a tip on another AMFA "deed" but can't share it as of yet. It's a biggie too. I'm still on vacation but just wanted to let you know that I'll be back. Back with some new information for you. But right now I have better things to do. . .
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #103
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On 8/2/2003 11:54:48 PM twuer wrote:
I'm touched RV4, you missd me. Geez, can't a guy take a little time off. These boards are not my life.
As far as that info you are looking for, the numbers are coming in as we speak. I got a tip on another AMFA "deed" but can't share it as of yet. It's a biggie too. I'm still on vacation but just wanted to let you know that I'll be back. Back with some new information for you. But right now I have better things to do. . .
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There is no need to produce another so-called "deed" until you provide proof of the last claim you made. LIAR!On 8/2/2003 11:54:48 PM twuer wrote:
I'm touched RV4, you missd me. Geez, can't a guy take a little time off. These boards are not my life.
As far as that info you are looking for, the numbers are coming in as we speak. I got a tip on another AMFA "deed" but can't share it as of yet. It's a biggie too. I'm still on vacation but just wanted to let you know that I'll be back. Back with some new information for you. But right now I have better things to do. . .
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Your post appears to translate into "I cannot provide the proof of my last lie, so I will be using my copy and paste function to produce another soon".
Why don't you make a attempt at telling us the positives of the TWU and why we should support the dictators instead of attacking AMFA all the time? What has the TWU accomplished for the AMT's in the last 20 years? The negative campaigning against AMFA has proven to fail in election after election. If you really want to keep the TWU, you best change strategies and show why the TWU is good, not why AMFA is bad.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #104
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On 8/3/2003 10:52:14 AM j7915 wrote:
If any employer left me that destitute I would think that it is time to quit. You are still with us, so there must be an adequate reward there.
Or are you banking on a juicy association position if and when?
The same folks will still be voting as do under the TWU.
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I see how it works now.On 8/3/2003 10:52:14 AM j7915 wrote:
If any employer left me that destitute I would think that it is time to quit. You are still with us, so there must be an adequate reward there.
Or are you banking on a juicy association position if and when?
The same folks will still be voting as do under the TWU.
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When we get a raise in pay and benefits, then the "TWU" got it for us.
When it is taken away "without further ratification", then it was "the employer" that left us destitute.
Forked Tongues and Back Stabbers, this is some great union!
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On 8/2/2003 924 PM RV4 wrote:
We are still waiting on twuer to produce the facts about NWA layoffs and seniority required to work at MSP Maintenance Base.
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
----------------
If any employer left me that destitute I would think that it is time to quit. You are still with us, so there must be an adequate reward there.On 8/2/2003 9
24 PM RV4 wrote: We are still waiting on twuer to produce the facts about NWA layoffs and seniority required to work at MSP Maintenance Base.
Instead, we get typical TWU vanishing act.
My pay has vanished.
My benefits have vanished.
My vacation has vanished.
My sick leave has vanished.
My Holidays have vanished.
and
twuer has vanished!
----------------
Or are you banking on a juicy association position if and when?
The same folks will still be voting as do under the TWU.
