Let The Games Begin!

[WorldTraveler]

but DL/NW is integrated.

whether certain employees choose to continue to create wedges to highlight their differences doesn't change the fact that DL has the only fully post-merger integrated workforce.

of any MAJOR airline.

 

[Kev3188]

but DL/NW is integrated.

 

 
 
Nobody said they weren't.
 
Doesn't change the fact that there is a very real difference between meeting the technical covenants of being integrated, and the realities of social psychology.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there are cultural differences within companies based on geographic and leadership differences, even if there has been no merger involved.

The risk to mergers is not cultural but when there are genuine legal issues that prevent integration - such as that some work belongs to one premerger group which the other premerger group can't touch.

Those are the kinds of differences that are costly and which are very common in the airline industry.

There is no legal separation between PMNW and PMDL employees but that is not true with other of the of the megamergers.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Uh, I think Kev's point is that de facto human being divisions can also be costly and/or hurt company's reputations, customer experiences, etc and they are still alive and well at Delta

 

[WorldTraveler]

There may be outliers that cause problems for any company (merged or not) but those outliers have no legal protection for being separatist and in fact can be disciplined or removed if they don't do their work at the level that their employer expects.

If they want to hold onto a different culture and still do their job to the standards the company requires, then the company won't do anything but neither does the outlier achieve what it was intending to do.

There is no legal recourse that permits sCO FAs to be told to work in places where sUA FAs are required to work by contract.

 

[Kev3188]

Uh, I think Kev's point is that de facto human being divisions can also be costly and/or hurt company's reputations, customer experiences, etc and they are still alive and well at Delta

BINGO.

The legal (or technical) covenants that constitute integration and the cultural and/or sociological ones are completely different animals.

IOW, 1AA, 700UW, and Blue Collar are all 100% correct, just from different angles.

...And yes, they are very much alive and well at DL. To argue otherwise simply shows how far removed someone is from the day to day goings on at the carrier.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say anything that says cultural differences don't exist.

I did say that the operation of the company is no different between one group of employees and another based on where they came from WRT job responsibilities or ability to move within the company.

No, I very much get that there is a fringe element of people at DL who don't want to fit in with the rest but they aren't legally protected to be separate.

CO/UA flies are separate. FL/WN pilots are separate. Legally.

PMNW employees are not legally separate from any DL peer in any work group.

 

[Kev3188]

By continuing to conflate the legal definition with the cross cultural one, you are totally missing the point.

No one said DL/NW weren't legally integrated, nor did anyone say it precluded the performing of work.

But to dismiss it as a fringe element again demonstrates an almost complete disconnect with what goes on behind the scenes.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not dismissing it... I'm saying it is not the majority (fringe meaning minority) of DL employees and it doesn't affect DL's ability to gain the efficiencies from the merger which other airlines are not.

specific to the discussion here, most airlines involve much larger divisions between work groups and that is why airline mergers are problematic. Industries that have less unionization do not have the workforce integration issues that airlines have.

 

[Kev3188]

GMAFB.
 
So if it's, say 49% (and in reality it's likely much higher), that's still a fringe? After all using your logic, that'd be the minority, right?
 
You can try to argue your way out of that box all you want; it only shows just how disconnected from the industry you really are.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, Kev. 49% is a minority.

You want to paint anyone who doesn't believe like you as disconnected.

The simple fact is that the number of PMNW people who haven't gotten with the program at DL is a minority.

And it also doesn't change that that fringe element doesn't and can't stop DL from moving forward with its strategies and is completely different from the legally different integration process which exists at other airlines and has long since finished at DL.

 

[nevergiveup]

yes, Kev. 49% is a minority.

You want to paint anyone who doesn't believe like you as disconnected.

The simple fact is that the number of PMNW people who haven't gotten with the program at DL is a minority.

And it also doesn't change that that fringe element doesn't and can't stop DL from moving forward with its strategies and is completely different from the legally different integration process which exists at other airlines and has long since finished at DL.

I am Nomad!

 

[MetalMover]

Everyone is integrated at US/HP except the Pilots.

Thanks.....I failed to mention that. But the point is that it is still not completed yet. 

 

[ContUNITEus]

Wrong again.

 
The AFA just got a JCBA this year and are integrated.
 
All groups are integrated and working under the same CBA except the pilots.
 
 

Flight attendants are not integrated,...    East and West F/A Operations are run separately.  This is done for logistical reasons, as US Airways continues to run separate scheduling systems.   When a PHX F/A is on a layover in CLT, and his/her flight gets cancelled, scheduling is unable to reassign that F/A to an east flight.  This is not the same if a PHL F/A is cancelled.  That F/A can be tossed and turned every way scheduling wants, as long as it is an east flight. 
 
F/As can, however, choose to move bases. Currently this can be done with the F/A taking his/her seniority with him/her.  On a side note:  Previously (at around 2010), afa-east allowed only transfers to its bases, if the PHX F/A permanently gave up all of his/her seniority and started out as a new hire.  The irony on this is that afa-east fought (in 2005) for the furloughed east F/As to be able to have their east hire date re-instated even when in PHX, upon signing of the new contract.  Only during the time preceding the signing of the new contract were the east furloughs kept at 2005 seniority in PHX.  Can you say DOUBLE STANDARD?
 
Moreover, there are a number of items that cannot be implemented on both groups - granted that they are mostly scheduling related. Those include also work rules related to hours of service.
 
As it is now, with the new AA merger, the implementation of a joint scheduling system is potentially going to be delayed indefinitely to the advantage of the company.
 
In a nutshell, all that the US AFA F/As got was an industry average pay-raise....  Something that the company didn't want to give, absent the impending merger proposal with AA.  Additionally, some of that pay raise was funded with the elimination of vacation days.

 

[Kev3188]

yes, Kev. 49% is a minority.

Indeed. But a "fringe?" Hardly.

You want to paint anyone who doesn't believe like you as disconnected.

If the shoe fits.

The simple fact is that the number of PMNW people who haven't gotten with the program at DL is a minority.

Who said it was restricted to the PMNW group?

Careful; you might trip over that bias...