Industrial vs. Craft

[Raptorman49]

One thing that comes from the beauty of " Democracy ", " Freedom " etc. Just remember the FACT not everyone wants to know or cares anything about the inner workings of Unions & Labor Laws they feel that they pays dues so people will do that for them. I would be willing that there are Hardcore AMFA supporters out there that could quote all kinds of information but if you tried to debate with them the conversation would be done because they never took the time to learn they just listened to people around them, I have seen it first hand on here with the witty one line comments of like "go away" or "you're an idiot". To fault someone for not being like you or Buck is wrong in my opinion. I try to read and learn as much as I can and through my efforts I am 100% sure I have not ran across any templates or outlines or tutorials that say you have to follow this or your opinion or conviction does not count.

When people go to a lawyer paying good money they are not held to someones standard that if they don't know everything the lawyer knows then they are wrong. When you hire an accountant you don't need to know tax laws. Like I said before, to fault someone that doesn't make Union, Labor Knowledge their highest priority or that does not have the same drive or mentality of others is petty.

You may be a computer guru or you may not but I would be willing to bet we could sit down and I could take you through OS knowledge or decompiling/compiling or writing code or dwelling in mysql, linux or OSX blah blah and I would get the deer in the headlight look or take you to some of the tech forums I frequent and you might not be able to converse in a thread because you have no clue if they are arguing or talking about arguments in binary code But! You guys can use a keyboard and mouse like nobodies business.

Good to see you back AC Tynker & great post I absolutely agree, I have no interest in knowing about Unions but know a lot about Amateur Radio, Exotic birds, Computers, Electronics, High tech gadgets etc. etc. We all have different interests, some of us just don't count Unionism as one of them so we pay our dues & expect the Union to handle the details, My Doctor didn't expect me to know Medicine when I picked him, actually my initial criteria for picking a doctor was how hot she was but they kept getting married & moving away so I switched to a male doctor .... LOL

 

[TWU informer]

Good to see you back AC Tynker & great post I absolutely agree, I have no interest in knowing about Unions but know a lot about Amateur Radio, Exotic birds, Computers, Electronics, High tech gadgets etc. etc. We all have different interests, some of us just don't count Unionism as one of them so we pay our dues & expect the Union to handle the details, My Doctor didn't expect me to know Medicine when I picked him, actually my initial criteria for picking a doctor was how hot she was but they kept getting married & moving away so I switched to a male doctor .... LOL

You guys and your personal lives need to be mvoed the the "water cooler" forum.
We are discussing AA Mechanic unionism here. If you cannot be involved in the threads topic then leave and go elsewhere. In other words if you have no interest in debating and learning the facts about the unions, then pack your bags and go elsewhere. That is what many of these threads are about, not your personal pud pounding weak and miserable lives.

Over on the "Water Cooler Forum" you can discuss Amateur Radio, Exotic birds, Computers, Electronics, High tech gadgets etc. etc.

This Forum is about American Airlines issues, and this thread is about Unionism. If you don't like it, have no interest, or cannot contribute to the topic then LEAVE! Or I will request moderator involvement and enforcement of forums rules and you will end up bannished.

Now back to the issue of the thread

How many members are there in the IBT Airline Division?

How many of those members are Mechanics?

Does the IBT operate on majority rule principles?

How does the Mechanic issues become the focus as the minority in the Airline Division?

Are there any Mechanics that are Officers in the Airline Division?

Are Airline Division Representatives and Officers elected my the members or appointed like TWU?

Can Airline Division Representative and Officers be recalled by the membership?

Can you describe the Central States IBT Pension fund?

Does this fund have more money going out than coming in?

Can you provide specific examples of how the size, money, claimed political clout and name recognition of the IBT has benefited the Mechanic and Related individual workers in any industry or politcal battle/issue?

 

[Raptorman49]

Why the hell did you end up at AA without any seniority if you can take anyone through OS knowledge or decompiling/compiling or writing code or dwelling in mysql, linux or OSX blah blah?

Is there some under lying unspoken issue? Or are you just unable to use those skills like most wizards with that knowledge?

My brother has those skills and makes 6 figures per year and doesn't bother to pay Union Dues and lurk around a sounding board for disgruntled workers. What gives?

You should have followed him instead of becoming a welder & going into Aviation, clearly he made the better choice, no union & six figures .... i'm jealous B)

 

[JABORD]

Some reasons that some have told me they like about the Teamsters are, they have 180,000 members, a lot of money meaning resources, professional negotiators instead of Local President's who have no experience with negotiating, Mechanic & related would be the only AA group in the Teamsters so they would be separating from the other 6 groups & the Teamsters would only be negotiating for them not all 7 groups, Mechanics would be the largest AA group in the Teamsters, that's pretty much the reasons I have heard them use, haven't heard them say anything about the International officers being a concern or what types of groups the Teamsters represent etc. everyone in my shop signed a card so if someone was really interested in why they signed they could come in & ask, I don't know for sure if they would tell a stranger their reasons but they might & I could direct them towards the more civil personalities.
Just an option.
personally I like their impeccable card drive skills for convincing TWU supporters to switch Unions, getting past the 50%+1 card count is the biggest hurtle I see to cross so those skills are helpful.

Mr Rapter, we remind ourselves to maintain civility and I recognize you as no dummy but sometimes you make it a challenge. 180K members? Bourne's own video states "with AA IBT will approach 30K mechanics". Any number higher would include non-mechanic so not really such a great ratio for us now is it. Most of the other references 'you were told' apply to AMFA as well. Impeccable is a great word to have in your vocabulary but unsure as to whether it applies. Oh, and before you say,"just passing on what I've been told" your accountable for the info you put in print especially if it's BS. 180K members?

 

[Raptorman49]

Well excuse me. I thought asking these questions and getting some straight answers would qualify as informing those that have interest. If this doesn't qualify, then what does?

How many members are there in the IBT Airline Division?

How many of those members are Mechanics?

Does the IBT operate on majority rule principles?

How does the Mechanic issues become the focus as the minority in the Airline Division?

Are there any Mechanics that are Officers in the Airline Division?

Are Airline Division Representatives and Officers elected my the members or appointed like TWU?

Can Airline Division Representative and Officers be recalled by the membership?

Can you describe the Central States IBT Pension fund?

Does this fund have more money going out than coming in?

Can you provide specific examples of how the size, money, claimed political clout and name recognition of the IBT has benefited the Mechanic and Related individual workers in any industry or politcal battle/issue?

Those are your issues Dave what if the reason people are picking the Teamsters is because they don't care about those particular issues ??
what if they like the huge size or the financial resources or being the only AA group in the Teamsters etc. If you really want the answer to YOUR questions & not what they might care about then go to the Informational meeting & ask those questions, I haven't heard any Teamster supporters ask those questions so I can only guess that they don't care about those issues.
There are lots of folks in my shop who haven't signed AMFA cards & did sign Teamster cards so it would be a good place to ask them why not & what they like about the Teamsters.

 

[Overspeed]

THERE IS ONLY ONE MECHANIC'S UNION = AMFA

I like how Rodgers states you should ask and AMFA member about his union. Okay, let's ask the 20,000 that don't have jobs anymore how do they like AMFA.

 

[TWU informer]

I like how Rodgers states you should ask and AMFA member about his union. Okay, let's ask the 20,000 that don't have jobs anymore how do they like AMFA.

I bet 90% of them have jobs right now and most are happier than we are with the TWU.
Go ahead, give me a list of those "without jobs anymore" and I will spend the time to ask them.

If I were to lose my job at American Airlines, I would get another one. And would also likely be happier.
The defined pension and seniority has kept many of us hanging around, the TWU appears to be dead set on destroying both, and many have already left and many more will soon.

How many TWU jobs have been lost counting the one's that will leave before the end of the year and those that left by death, retirement, termination, resignation and have not been replaced? Do you know about how many?

I agree with Rodgers ask any AMFA member how they like their Union and compare to asking a TWU member how they like their Union. Good idea!

 

[Raptorman49]

Mr Rapter, we remind ourselves to maintain civility and I recognize you as no dummy but sometimes you make it a challenge. 180K members? Bourne's own video states "with AA IBT will approach 30K mechanics". Any number higher would include non-mechanic so not really such a great ratio for us now is it. Most of the other references 'you were told' apply to AMFA as well. Impeccable is a great word to have in your vocabulary but unsure as to whether it applies. Oh, and before you say,"just passing on what I've been told" your accountable for the info you put in print especially if it's BS. 180K members?

180K members is their total membership I did not say 180K mechanics for a reason, not everyone cares that the 180K isn't Mechanics, I quick search of their Q&A gave me this, http://www.teamster.org/sites/teamster.org/files/71912revsdAAGettheFactsFlier.pdf

you could do your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you. B)
as I said I don't want to know the details.

 

[JABORD]

Good to see you back AC Tynker & great post I absolutely agree, I have no interest in knowing about Unions but know a lot about Amateur Radio, Exotic birds, Computers, Electronics, High tech gadgets etc. etc. We all have different interests, some of us just don't count Unionism as one of them so we pay our dues & expect the Union to handle the details, My Doctor didn't expect me to know Medicine when I picked him, actually my initial criteria for picking a doctor was how hot she was but they kept getting married & moving away so I switched to a male doctor .... LOL

Congrats on you and the tynkerer recognizing to being a statistic of the TWBoo. Paying union dues and attending BBQ balonie events doesn't make you a Union member. Lack of interest in engaging as a Union member is what has been the TWU's success in dumbing down or craft. And the comment of,"no Union would satisfy me just fine" makes for a genuine hypocrate. To make this kind of statement, yet enjoy Union wages which have been proven to raise the bar at non-union shops also, is bogus.

 

[Raptorman49]

I like how Rodgers states you should ask and AMFA member about his union. Okay, let's ask the 20,000 that don't have jobs anymore how do they like AMFA.

Is that really a fair question ? All the Unions have lost Jobs, TWU has lost a lot & is getting ready to lose more, many lost jobs are due to Strikes & it is the Members who vote to strike not the organization so they chose to take the risk & lost, that's why I ask if that is a fair question, I think you could come up with better one's that are more specific to AMFA only & not an every Union problem.

 

[TWU informer]

I like how Rodgers states you should ask and AMFA member about his union. Okay, let's ask the 20,000 that don't have jobs anymore how do they like AMFA.

Just for the sake of accuracy and credibility, can you give me a break down by airline of those 20,000 jobs?

I know about the 4600 at Northwest and that the membership voted to strike and was replaced by Industrial Union scabs, but where do you add up the the other 15,400 you are claiming.

Just curious.

 

[JABORD]

180K members is their total membership I did not say 180K mechanics for a reason, not everyone cares that the 180K isn't Mechanics, I quick search of their Q&A gave me this, http://www.teamster....eFactsFlier.pdf

you could do your own research instead of expecting others to do it for you. B)
as I said I don't want to know the details.

Well next time don't do too quick of a search. 180,000??, don't see it. I also have seen this flyer and most of the IBT's own material discredits them. 18,000 mechanics vs 80,000 airline division, like I said, not such a great ratio for us is it?

 

[Raptorman49]

Congrats on you and the tynkerer recognizing to being a statistic of the TWBoo. Paying union dues and attending BBQ balonie events doesn't make you a Union member. Lack of interest in engaging as a Union member is what has been the TWU's success in dumbing down or craft. And the comment of,"no Union would satisfy me just fine" makes for a genuine hypocrate. To make this kind of statement, yet enjoy Union wages which have been proven to raise the bar at non-union shops also, is bogus.

I agree i'm not a Union Man ..... I'm a Man in a Union there is a huge difference, I'm in a Union because when I hired on they said I had to join, knowing nothing about Union's when I was 23 I said ok whatever, slowly but surely over the past 25 years I have been learning & not liking what I see, I am the only one in my family who has ever been in a Union, my Father owned his own business & as such has always been adamantly against Unions.
I'm here & making the best of it for the most part the Union doesn't bother me but sure don't feel like i'm getting what I pay for .... LOL

 

[TWU informer]

Well next time don't do too quick of a search. 180,000??, don't see it. I also have seen this flyer and most of the IBT's own material discredits them. 18,000 mechanics vs 80,000 airline division, like I said, not such a great ratio for us is it?

BINGO!

18000 out of 80000 in a majority rule structure will place us in a horrible situation.

For those that cannot add that is less than 25% voting block in the IBT Airline Division.

Now you know why the questions I listed have not been answered.

 

[Raptorman49]

Well next time don't do too quick of a search. 180,000??, don't see it. I also have seen this flyer and most of the IBT's own material discredits them. 18,000 mechanics vs 80,000 airline division, like I said, not such a great ratio for us is it?

Your right I was wrong IBT website says current membership 1.4 Million guess I was off by several hundred thousand. http://www.teamster....tent/fast-facts

more flyers http://www.teamster....sBringFlier.pdf

more flyers http://www.teamster.org/content/frequently-asked-questions-faq

The facts are out there for those wishing to know them.
Some only care about the Airline division & some others only care about the AA Teamster membership, just saying that's what I'm being told, I personally don't care about either but that's just me.