Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

He points out your favorite lovelies of the home office want the same thing the twu already enjoys - unaccountability - not to mention the doubts your international will file for an election anyway.

Some time ago when the twu international felt AMFA was beginning to make inroads, there were twu people all over the base picking up their stuff and throwing it in the trash on sight. That isn't happening now - why is that? Why would one "union" be satisfied to cede their dues income to another union?

It would appear you people are simply repaying favors - this sham amounts to nothing different than Ralph Nader on the Presidential ballot acting as a spoiler, hoping to siphon votes and cards from the competition - that comment isn't intended to imply any of the three are worth their salt.

Add to that what I feel is a major misinformation campaign with respect to this "merger" that was probably set up in advance of this C11 filing by the darlings in Centrepork / Tempe and it gets quite laughable in a big hurry.

I appreciate you comments, thank you Frank. I became an IBT cheerleader on this site because I was willing to stand up for the Union that now represents me. Before that, I was an AMFA supporter like many of you. One simply did not work out, an the other did. That's it. I do not mean to imply anything else. Like many of you, I had my doubts and mistrusts with the Teamsters, but gave in to chance. For me it paid off. It has not been perfect, or uneventful. However, the Teamsters have done well enough that I am willing to post my support for them, in spite of what some on this forum write.

I was not asked here by TWU, or the IBT. I realize my appearance seems suspect, but the conversations are gaining new levels as well. One day I simply decided to respond. Like any partial OCD, I was on this page all the time, even skipping sleep. I went to therapy (a bottle of rum one night off) and I am better now. Only occasional posts. But I admit a slight relapse.

I have no answer for why the TWU seems to be tolerating the IBT. I know our Unions have worked together in the past, but I have not read anything about a cohesive campaign, nor have I heard any rumors around the terminal. In truth, I am very curious about the same thing? I read the article that the IBT is moving in on TWU. I just never considered that they would raid a friendly Union.

I can only guess at one thing. This is the same thing that brought UAL to Teamsters during the AMFA days, and not during the IAM days. I said in one of my earlier posts that the Teamsters stayed on the sidelines until they were sure enough support existed. That support never happened during the IAM, but it sure did happen during the final days of AMFA. More and more of us were willing to sign Teamster cards, and suddenly they came in like an invading army.

Could it be that there is support from within the AA rank and file that are feeding the Teamsters appearance? That is my only conclusion. It happened here and it seems to be doing the same thing there. They stayed on the outside gauging support and making no announcements, then bam... I really have no idea what is happening at your stations as far as union support goes. My guess is that there are a lot of your mechanics quietly making phone calls and writing e-mails. That is how it happened here at UAL. I mean there was always a small team trying to get the IBT on property with fliers and meetings and such, but for a long time many of us just ignored them. Somehow after several months when it seemed like the small drive was going nowhere, the Teamsters knew support was here and drove in. Like I said before, when they did show up, all of a sudden, it seemed like everyone had been for them all along. This is how I saw it anyway. I too thought they had no chance at UAL. I am pleased to say I was wrong. About a a couple of things.

Thanks again for your courteous response. What ever happens, I wish you the best.

 

[TWU informer]

Basically all you have to important issues is either no answer or sling mud.

I thought I would answer one of your posts, with one of your other posts. It works. Why is it that if I raise the fact that AMFA has no strike fund, nor did they really hold a consistent picket line, you call it mud slinging.... yet your last posts are wallowing on the brown ooze.

You are a curious fellow.

I am not slinging MUD.

I am posting information coming directly from the Teamsters for a Democractic Union


Which by the way you have never answered why your great IBT membership has a need for that organization to begin with?

 

[Birdman]

There are many TWU insiders admitting that the IBT was invited to run a "spoiler drive". It appears to me that if the IBT were serious about raiding AA that they would stand by and allow AMFA on the property, then due to their superiority according to Anomaly, simply raid AMFA.

 

[aapitbull]

There are many TWU insiders admitting that the IBT was invited to run a "spoiler drive". It appears to me that if the IBT were serious about raiding AA that they would stand by and allow AMFA on the property, then due to their superiority according to Anomaly, simply raid AMFA.

The thing I find most interesting is the TWU could kill the teamsters drive by simply going out and telling everyone it's a shame to cover their backs, whether that is true or not. Yet they do not offically say that is the case, so at some level it must be true that they want the IBT here!!

Sorry Anomaly, but that is the only logical conclusion I see.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I appreciate you comments, thank you Frank. I became an IBT cheerleader on this site because I was willing to stand up for the Union that now represents me. Before that, I was an AMFA supporter like many of you. One simply did not work out, an the other did. That's it. I do not mean to imply anything else. Like many of you, I had my doubts and mistrusts with the Teamsters, but gave in to chance. For me it paid off. It has not been perfect, or uneventful. However, the Teamsters have done well enough that I am willing to post my support for them, in spite of what some on this forum write.

I was not asked here by TWU, or the IBT. I realize my appearance seems suspect, but the conversations are gaining new levels as well. One day I simply decided to respond. Like any partial OCD, I was on this page all the time, even skipping sleep. I went to therapy (a bottle of rum one night off) and I am better now. Only occasional posts. But I admit a slight relapse.

I have no answer for why the TWU seems to be tolerating the IBT. I know our Unions have worked together in the past, but I have not read anything about a cohesive campaign, nor have I heard any rumors around the terminal. In truth, I am very curious about the same thing? I read the article that the IBT is moving in on TWU. I just never considered that they would raid a friendly Union.

I can only guess at one thing. This is the same thing that brought UAL to Teamsters during the AMFA days, and not during the IAM days. I said in one of my earlier posts that the Teamsters stayed on the sidelines until they were sure enough support existed. That support never happened during the IAM, but it sure did happen during the final days of AMFA. More and more of us were willing to sign Teamster cards, and suddenly they came in like an invading army.

Could it be that there is support from within the AA rank and file that are feeding the Teamsters appearance? That is my only conclusion. It happened here and it seems to be doing the same thing there. They stayed on the outside gauging support and making no announcements, then bam... I really have no idea what is happening at your stations as far as union support goes. My guess is that there are a lot of your mechanics quietly making phone calls and writing e-mails. That is how it happened here at UAL. I mean there was always a small team trying to get the IBT on property with fliers and meetings and such, but for a long time many of us just ignored them. Somehow after several months when it seemed like the small drive was going nowhere, the Teamsters knew support was here and drove in. Like I said before, when they did show up, all of a sudden, it seemed like everyone had been for them all along. This is how I saw it anyway. I too thought they had no chance at UAL. I am pleased to say I was wrong. About a a couple of things.

Thanks again for your courteous response. What ever happens, I wish you the best.

I began to thank you for the large "non-answer" but realized it was actually a pretty good response after all.

It told me (and others, hopefully) all that's needed to make a decision.

 

[TWU informer]

The thing I find most interesting is the TWU could kill the teamsters drive by simply going out and telling everyone it's a shame to cover their backs, whether that is true or not. Yet they do not offically say that is the case, so at some level it must be true that they want the IBT here!!

Sorry Anomaly, but that is the only logical conclusion I see.

What is disgusting and worth noting is that any union that requires such a tactic, along with any union that participates is unworthy of any support period. How strong could your union be if this is the method of survival and how strong is industrial unionism to begin with?

No wonder the 1955 merger of the AFL and CIO has led to destruction of the organized labor movement.

This ranks just below the fact that both the TWU and IBT assisted in the hiring of scabs to bust AMFA at Northwest Airlines and now they use that union busting as a campaign tool.

WTF over?

 

[Anomaly]

There are many TWU insiders admitting that the IBT was invited to run a "spoiler drive". It appears to me that if the IBT were serious about raiding AA that they would stand by and allow AMFA on the property, then due to their superiority according to Anomaly, simply raid AMFA.

From what I understand at UAL, the Teamsters regret not coming in earlier. When AMFA was really starting to ramp up and push the election at UAL, some people called the Teamsters. At the time the IBT said they were not interested in raiding the IAM, and from what I understand, did not believe the work force was serious about changing Unions. They obviously were wrong. What I am saying, is your situation is VERY similar to what we went through at UAL when we switched to AMFA. I am of the opinion, that the Teamsters are being cautious about making the same mistake twice.

Again, I have no proof or inside knowledge, and contrary to the many comments, I am not a paid informant, but it sure seems to make sense. I think the Teamsters are sitting on the sidelines looking to see if you guys are serious about leaving. If they find out that you are, I would bet my last dollar that they will be in with a real campaign whether or not TWU is for it or not.

 

[Birdman]

I think the Teamsters are sitting on the sidelines looking to see if you guys are serious about leaving. If they find out that you are, I would bet my last dollar that they will be in with a real campaign whether or not TWU is for it or not.

What part of 2 informational meetings and cards/literature everywhere in TULE constitutes sitting on the sidelines? So you don't believe the TWU, contrary to insider revelations, has invited the IBT to run a sham drive to dilute the serious AMFA drive?

 

[Anomaly]

There are many TWU insiders admitting that the IBT was invited to run a "spoiler drive". It appears to me that if the IBT were serious about raiding AA that they would stand by and allow AMFA on the property, then due to their superiority according to Anomaly, simply raid AMFA.

AT UAL when the campaign for AMFA was really heating up, I know the Teamsters were contacted. From what I found out later on is that the IBT did not believe the UAL mechanics were serious about switching unions. Also, I think at the time the Teamsters may have been part of the AFL/CIO who have a no raid clause with other members. If this was the case, IBT could not enter the race against the IAM.

At this time there is nothing to hold the Teamsters back, as they are not part of any anti raid clause. Contrary to some of the posts, I am not a paid informant of the IBT so I do not have any inside or advanced information. My opinion, is the Teamsters are in Tulsa to gauge support. If they see enough support, I would bet my bottom dollar they will swoop in with a full fledged campaign regardless of the TWU's position. I think they felt it was a mistake to wait at UAL, and I do think they will make the same mistake twice. A long time ago, and I can not find it now, I remember reading on one of these TAMC letters they were sending out for a while, that the Teamsters were focused and ready to represent every airline mechanic in the US. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Anomaly]

What part of 2 informational meetings and cards/literature everywhere in TULE constitutes sitting on the sidelines? So you don't believe the TWU, contrary to insider revelations, has invited the IBT to run a sham drive to dilute the serious AMFA drive?

I have never been to Tulsa. My information comes from this site and google searches. I call it sitting on the sidelines only because I have not heard of their presence at any other station other than Tulsa. Again, that is the way it was when they raided AMFA here at UAL. Collect and gauge interest at one large station. When I see them here in SFO, or learn they are at other stations, then we will all know their true intentions.

 

[Anomaly]

From what I understand at UAL, the Teamsters regret not coming in earlier. When AMFA was really starting to ramp up and push the election at UAL, some people called the Teamsters. At the time the IBT said they were not interested in raiding the IAM, and from what I understand, did not believe the work force was serious about changing Unions. They obviously were wrong. What I am saying, is your situation is VERY similar to what we went through at UAL when we switched to AMFA. I am of the opinion, that the Teamsters are being cautious about making the same mistake twice.

Again, I have no proof or inside knowledge, and contrary to the many comments, I am not a paid informant, but it sure seems to make sense. I think the Teamsters are sitting on the sidelines looking to see if you guys are serious about leaving. If they find out that you are, I would bet my last dollar that they will be in with a real campaign whether or not TWU is for it or not.

Sorry, I thought this had erased when I changed pages, and had to write it all out again. That is why there are two posts saying basically the same thing.

 

[aapitbull]

Again, I have no proof or inside knowledge, and contrary to the many comments, I am not a paid informant, but it sure seems to make sense. I think the Teamsters are sitting on the sidelines looking to see if you guys are serious about leaving. If they find out that you are, I would bet my last dollar that they will be in with a real campaign whether or not TWU is for it or not.

Another disclaimer and then assurances that this is for real, well if your not a paid member of the Ibt organizing committee you need to be,and do not think for a minute just because a few of the Tulsa group have decided they want you that it will be the case at the line.The guys out in line stations have been in big locals where our issues do not get heard and have no desire to leave locals where we run the show to join your Airline Division where the pilots are the leadership and again we will not be heard. If we are going to change it will be to a union run by Mechanics for Mechanics where as Lee Seham says every dime of every dollar and every minute of every day will be about our Craft, not some hodge podge group that includes 1.3 million members from god knows how many crafts.

So to put it short and sweet we have a 300 pound gorilla that is totally unaccountable to us and out of control, we do not seek a 500 pound gorilla that will be totally unaccountable to us and out of control.We seek a craft union where our voice will be the one heard and our issues will be the ones addressed and if that was not your experiance with AMFA,than might I suggest you look very closely in the mirror. Because with AMFA you are in charge and if people ran amuck then you and your fellow Mechanics are to blame, hell some people cannot balance a check book, that does not mean I should not have one.

 

[aapitbull]

At this time there is nothing to hold the Teamsters back, as they are not part of any anti raid clause. Contrary to some of the posts, I am not a paid informant of the IBT so I do not have any inside or advanced information. My opinion, is the Teamsters are in Tulsa to gauge support. If they see enough support, I would bet my bottom dollar they will swoop in with a full fledged campaign regardless of the TWU's position. I think they felt it was a mistake to wait at UAL, and I do think they will make the same mistake twice. A long time ago, and I can not find it now, I remember reading on one of these TAMC letters they were sending out for a while, that the Teamsters were focused and ready to represent every airline mechanic in the US. Take it for what it's worth.

Well even if this a full fledged go as you say the TWU can stop it tomorrow by simply telling people it is not that it's all part of a plan to stop AMFA, most of us believe this anyway and if they leaked a document saying so that would kill the IBT. yet they do not make that move, so like they say if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. ITS A DUCK!!

 

[Anomaly]

What is disgusting and worth noting is that any union that requires such a tactic, along with any union that participates is unworthy of any support period. How strong could your union be if this is the method of survival and how strong is industrial unionism to begin with?

No wonder the 1955 merger of the AFL and CIO has led to destruction of the organized labor movement.

This ranks just below the fact that both the TWU and IBT assisted in the hiring of scabs to bust AMFA at Northwest Airlines and now they use that union busting as a campaign tool.

WTF over?

Your rants on craft unionism just make no sense. I have been trying to ignore them, but I have to ask, do you really understand where the craft Unions started and what their power actually was? The craft unions started as shoe makers, type setters, and metal workers who all had a skill set typically handed down but always one that took years of dedication to master. They had power because there were very few of them that could do the work and they could shut down a single industry because of their skills. Technology was their enemy, not the merger of the AFL and CIO. In fact, the AFL began to loose the single craft mindset as early as the AFL’s convention in 1935 after the "small potato" incident when the CIO former members of the AFL pushed towards broader membership. You also forget to mention during your rants that the CIO was born and made up of workers from the AFL craft unions. Read the books "Which Side Are You On" or "Labor's Untold Story" for a deeper understanding of the origin of the industrial unions.

Fast forward to today and it is hard for me to buy in to your crap about the power of a craft union if you continue to model it after an industrial union. To explain; AMFA claims it is a craft union and bases it's example after the limited success of the Pilots and Flight attendants. But lets be honest, neither of those two other groups have the same measure of competition for their jobs in vendors willing and able to replace them like the 4000 MRO's that are here int the US taking away airline mechanics jobs. And AMFA is only going after the mechanics at the airlines themselves and completely ignoring the mechanics at the MRO's. AMFA is simply not acting like a TRUE craft Union.

At the same time, however, Craft Unions do work when correctly applied. If AMFA really wanted to run as a successful craft union, and I think it can, it would quit comparing to the Pilots and F/A's and instead model after the success of the construction trade. If I were "that guy" I would create craft houses or shops and hire them out by seniority to the airlines, or the MRO's. Put all of us into that group under one contract as a TRUE craft Union made up of all aircraft mechanics, using our A&P licenses as admission in to the trade. If I am working for an airline in a city and laid off, I could simply go back to my Union and exorcize my seniority to begin working at another airline or even an MRO in my same city keeping my pay, benefits and seniority in tact. This is how it works in the true craft unions and the only way I believe it can work in our profession. But to do this, AMFA has to loose the idea of raiding airlines and hoping that enough of these mechanics will do the trick. There are too many 145 repair stations out there and none of them are organized.

The way the craft union is represented now in the mechanics profession with AMFA or AMP or any other single mechanic group claiming to hold power as a craft union, I believe will fail as long as there are unorganized MRO groups out there.
Tell AMFA to go truly independent. Tell them to organizing ALL mechanics under a single contract. An airline or MRO would have to go through this Union pool in order to hire a mechanic. That would be undeniable craft power! When AMFA or anyone else comes up with a plan like that, I will be interested in Craft union ideology.

Otherwise, TWU Informer, your just blowing a lot of hot air.

 

[Anomaly]

Another disclaimer and then assurances that this is for real, well if your not a paid member of the Ibt organizing committee you need to be,and do not think for a minute just because a few of the Tulsa group have decided they want you that it will be the case at the line.The guys out in line stations have been in big locals where our issues do not get heard and have no desire to leave locals where we run the show to join your Airline Division where the pilots are the leadership and again we will not be heard. If we are going to change it will be to a union run by Mechanics for Mechanics where as Lee Seham says every dime of every dollar and every minute of every day will be about our Craft, not some hodge podge group that includes 1.3 million members from god knows how many crafts.

So to put it short and sweet we have a 300 pound gorilla that is totally unaccountable to us and out of control, we do not seek a 500 pound gorilla that will be totally unaccountable to us and out of control.We seek a craft union where our voice will be the one heard and our issues will be the ones addressed and if that was not your experiance with AMFA,than might I suggest you look very closely in the mirror. Because with AMFA you are in charge and if people ran amuck then you and your fellow Mechanics are to blame, hell some people cannot balance a check book, that does not mean I should not have one.

AMFA had and still has the same problem with the Locals as you mentioned in your response. I am not completely married to how our Local works here in SFO. At many of the line stations here at UAL, many of those members do not have any direct access to any Local and are mostly unheard.

But be honest, AMFA has the same problem. There are few Locals within AMFA, and many line stations within this group are also unheard. This problem will not be corrected by changing Unions. No matter what any of them tell you.

Another job offer for me? I will have to say no thanks on the organizing offer. Not my bag.