Industrial vs. Craft

[aapitbull]

Also as the ONLY group in the Teamsters at AA we would no longer have to be concerned about a Fleet service clerk being elected as our President ..... Ugh !

You just cannot be that thick, They proudly say they are the only union in the industry to represent every class and craft Pilot, FA,s Fleet Service, Store's M&R & Dispatchers why would you believe that they will not organize the rest if they get the M&R. You yourself said that hey need money for their Pensions well there are 11000 Fleet Service Guys at AA and they do not like the TWU either.

What are our problems today we are being sold down the river by the unelected and unaccountable Jim Little Joe Gordon Don Viedetch Bobby Gless etc etc and if we go to the Teamsters it will be Jim Hoffa Capt David Bourne and a host of unelected unaccountable Business Agents my guess is since the TWU/IBT are working together if by some chance it does happen Don and Bobby will slide right over.

 

[Raptorman49]

You just cannot be that thick, They proudly say they are the only union in the industry to represent every class and craft Pilot, FA,s Fleet Service, Store's M&R & Dispatchers why would you believe that they will not organize the rest if they get the M&R. You yourself said that hey need money for their Pensions well there are 11000 Fleet Service Guys at AA and they do not like the TWU either.

What are our problems today we are being sold down the river by the unelected and unaccountable Jim Little Joe Gordon Don Viedetch Bobby Gless etc etc and if we go to the Teamsters it will be Jim Hoffa Capt David Bourne and a host of unelected unaccountable Business Agents my guess is since the TWU/IBT are working together if by some chance it does happen Don and Bobby will slide right over.

I agree there always is a chance that the Teamsters could choose to organize the other 6 groups at some point in the Future but that doesn't mean that they will, being as they are so popular at the Tulsa base I'm willing to take the chance, if they do organize the other groups we can always switch again, United makes a habit of switching Unions when they don't perform & I'm all for that if AA Mechanics could stop fighting each other & start cooperating & compromising.

 

[Anomaly]

United makes a habit of switching Unions when they don't perform & I'm all for that if AA Mechanics could stop fighting each other & start cooperating & compromising.

I would not recommend this Raptor. Switching unions can weaken your credibility in negotiations. The company knows they have an ace card and can play hard ball figuring employee anger will be easily shifted to the unions. The company helps keep the which union is better argument alive here. You really do not want this.

Rather, I think you are on the right track. There are risks to changing unions, and risks to keeping the one you have. If you can pass on the rhetoric, and make informed and educated decisions hopefully your next decision will be your last for a very long time. The Teamsters, no doubt, come with some risks. Overall, many of us here at UAL are satisfied with what they have done for us. If we weren't, as you mentioned, our habit has been to change.

 

[Raptorman49]

I would not recommend this Raptor. Switching unions can weaken your credibility in negotiations. The company knows they have an ace card and can play hard ball figuring employee anger will be easily shifted to the unions. The company helps keep the which union is better argument alive here. You really do not want this.

Rather, I think you are on the right track. There are risks to changing unions, and risks to keeping the one you have. If you can pass on the rhetoric, and make informed and educated decisions hopefully your next decision will be your last for a very long time. The Teamsters, no doubt, come with some risks. Overall, many of us here at UAL are satisfied with what they have done for us. If we weren't, as you mentioned, our habit has been to change.

Thanks for the Info & I agree with you, hopefully TWU Informer and aapitbull will read this.

 

[Anomaly]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

Very well said. In fact, I think I'll shut up for a while.

 

[TWU informer]

I would not recommend this Raptor. Switching unions can weaken your credibility in negotiations. The company knows they have an ace card and can play hard ball figuring employee anger will be easily shifted to the unions. The company helps keep the which union is better argument alive here. You really do not want this.

Rather, I think you are on the right track. There are risks to changing unions, and risks to keeping the one you have. If you can pass on the rhetoric, and make informed and educated decisions hopefully your next decision will be your last for a very long time. The Teamsters, no doubt, come with some risks. Overall, many of us here at UAL are satisfied with what they have done for us. If we weren't, as you mentioned, our habit has been to change.

We have been getting our asses kicked in negotiations adn in the Politcal Arena for years while represented by Industrial Unions and now you come here and claim "we would lose our credibility by changing unions unless of course we will select the one and the only Industrial Union of Teamsters." How pathetic is that?

I have no interest in a raise in my monthly dues. In getting another Industrial Union. In having more appointed leaders. And in being the minority is a so-called democratic union structure.

It cannot be both ways. If the Union is democratic, then the minority is not heard. If the Union is not democratic, then we have another TWU on our hands.

I do suggest an informed decision, but a Union that starts off its campaign telling you to not sign the opposing Union's card is not into informed ideas at all. That is more dirty politics, once a duck always a duck. I have not seen Teamsters material thrown away or torn of the bulletin board. But what happens to AMFA material? Informed to an Industrial Unionist means one sided information and stop the free flow of information.

There is an AMFA Informational Meeting coming soon to Tulsa. Spend the time to attend and get informed.
Hopefully the TWU doesnt show up with a trailer and a coffin embarrasing the profession once again.

 

[Raptorman49]

We have been getting our asses kicked in negotiations adn in the Politcal Arena for years while represented by Industrial Unions and now you come here and claim "we would lose our credibility by changing unions unless of course we will select the one and the only Industrial Union of Teamsters." How pathetic is that?

I have no interest in a raise in my monthly dues. In getting another Industrial Union. In having more appointed leaders. And in being the minority is a so-called democratic union structure.

It cannot be both ways. If the Union is democratic, then the minority is not heard. If the Union is not democratic, then we have another TWU on our hands.

I do suggest an informed decision, but a Union that starts off its campaign telling you to not sign the opposing Union's card is not into informed ideas at all. That is more dirty politics, once a duck always a duck. I have not seen Teamsters material thrown away or torn of the bulletin board. But what happens to AMFA material? Informed to an Industrial Unionist means one sided information and stop the free flow of information.

There is an AMFA Informational Meeting coming soon to Tulsa. Spend the time to attend and get informed.
Hopefully the TWU doesnt show up with a trailer and a coffin embarrasing the profession once again.

I was wondering why I see Teamster material on the bulletin boards all the time but not AMFA stuff, I didn't know that it was being torn down, I just assumed they weren't putting any up, I don't have a problem with higher dues if it means another accruing pension, I'm not a big fan of 401k plans for many reasons, 5+ years more of an accruing Pension really sounds appealing to me.

 

[TWU informer]

I was wondering why I see Teamster material on the bulletin boards all the time but not AMFA stuff, I didn't know that it was being torn down, I just assumed they weren't putting any up, I don't have a problem with higher dues if it means another accruing pension, I'm not a big fan of 401k plans for many reasons, 5+ years more of an accruing Pension really sounds appealing to me.

Please give me the specifc details of this pension you have found so much favor.

How is it funded, How much will you and I get, and is it insured, and when can you and I start drawing a check from it?

You know, tell me everything you know about it that makes you want the Teamsters so badly. Details, preferably in a legal and binding contractual agreement enforceable in court of law.

 

[Raptorman49]

We have been getting our asses kicked in negotiations adn in the Politcal Arena for years while represented by Industrial Unions and now you come here and claim "we would lose our credibility by changing unions unless of course we will select the one and the only Industrial Union of Teamsters." How pathetic is that?

I have no interest in a raise in my monthly dues. In getting another Industrial Union. In having more appointed leaders. And in being the minority is a so-called democratic union structure.

It cannot be both ways. If the Union is democratic, then the minority is not heard. If the Union is not democratic, then we have another TWU on our hands.

I do suggest an informed decision, but a Union that starts off its campaign telling you to not sign the opposing Union's card is not into informed ideas at all. That is more dirty politics, once a duck always a duck. I have not seen Teamsters material thrown away or torn of the bulletin board. But what happens to AMFA material? Informed to an Industrial Unionist means one sided information and stop the free flow of information.

There is an AMFA Informational Meeting coming soon to Tulsa. Spend the time to attend and get informed.
Hopefully the TWU doesnt show up with a trailer and a coffin embarrasing the profession once again.

I didn't go to the Teamster Informational meeting so don't see any reason why I should go to the AMFA Informational Union, I would only learn what I already know & wouldn't learn what I want to know which is whether AMFA can actually get enough cards to get to an Election, the only way that I personally will believe that AMFA can get to an Election would be for someone to show me where all these AMFA hot spots are at the Base because I haven't seen them & don't believe they exist, I know where many Teamster hot spots are at the Base though, some in the hangers as well as the shops.

 

[TWU informer]

I didn't go to the Teamster Informational meeting so don't see any reason why I should go to the AMFA Informational Union, I would only learn what I already know & wouldn't learn what I want to know which is whether AMFA can actually get enough cards to get to an Election, the only way that I personally will believe that AMFA can get to an Election would be for someone to show me where all these AMFA hot spots are at the Base because I haven't seen them & don't believe they exist, I know where many Teamster hot spots are at the Base though, some in the hangers as well as the shops.

So you agree when either sides states "make an informed decision" but you don't need no stinking meeting to be informed?
Alrighty then.

Inform me about this Teamsters Pension. Inform me about the Teamsters for a Democratic Union group. Inform me about this Government oversight that existed for the Teamsters for years until they endorsed Obama for President. Inform me about what happened to the TWU's New Direction group. Inform me about why the Stores Chairman at Local 514 was removed from Office. Inform me about the procedure to file a proof of claim against AA in BK court and the deadline to file that claim. Inform me about Southwest Airlines. Inform me about United Airlines. Inform me about the AMFA Consititutional Convention that just took place lat month. I still need to know.

Informing members causes card signing and more organizers, organizers and card signing causes an election, and election causes potential for change of union. Informing members will help them understand why the line AMT has no interest and never will in the Teamsters.

But you need no information, you already know everything you need to know, but cannot share it with us?

 

[Raptorman49]

Please give me the specifc details of this pension you have found so much favor.

How is it funded, How much will you and I get, and is it insured, and when can you and I start drawing a check from it?

You know, tell me everything you know about it that makes you want the Teamsters so badly. Details, preferably in a legal and binding contractual agreement enforceable in court of law.

It is insured by the PBGC as a multi-Company Pension which means the premiums are much lower than single company Pensions like AA, you can draw it at 55 like most Pensions, It is funded by Employee's & often times partially by the Company, this is what I understand to be the case but as you know I am not in the Teamsters yet so really won't have all the details until I am.

 

[Raptorman49]

So you agree when either sides states "make an informed decision" but you don't need no stinking meeting to be informed?
Alrighty then.

Inform me about this Teamsters Pension. Inform me about Southwest Airlines. Inform me about United Airlines. Inform me about the AMFA Consititutional Convention that just took place lat month. I still need to know.

As I stated I am for AMFA so I know everything I need to know, once again sometimes it's not about which Union is the best Union for Mechanics sometimes it's about which one is popular enough to get enough cards for an Election, I have no interest in another 5 year card drive to get enough cards.
Thats assuming that 5 years would even be enough this time, things were very different back in 2003 than they are now for AMFA & the difference matters a lot.

 

[Raptorman49]

Show me where all these AMFA hot spots in Tulsa are & then I'll believe that AMFA is anywhere near as popular as the Teamsters are now.

 

[TWU informer]

It is insured by the PBGC as a multi-Company Pension which means the premiums are much lower than single company Pensions like AA, you can draw it at 55 like most Pensions, It is funded by Employee's & often times partially by the Company, this is what I understand to be the case but as you know I am not in the Teamsters yet so really won't have all the details until I am.

Do you have link or something that shows specific details about this pension claim and what you and I will recieve and how much we must put into it?
What about someone that is already 55? Do they get a check for free?

Please show me the details that you have that makes you salivate for the Teamsters?

What specifics did they give you and is it in writing?

 

[Raptorman49]

Do you have link or something that shows specific details about this pension claim and what you and I will recieve and how much we must put into it?
What about someone that is already 55? Do they get a check for free?

Please show me the details that you have that makes you salivate for the Teamsters?

What specifics did they give you and is it in writing?

You do know how Pensions work right, you don't get a check until you put money in first & what you get is calculated in a formula that is different for each organization represented, I don't know what the formula is, probably no one does until we are actually in it.
I do know some guys in my shop who are presently recieving a Teamster Pension check though & they like it, I can introduce you.