Industrial vs. Craft

[Buck]

I have collected a 100 Teamsters cards, the drive has collected much more than that, as I said I am not a major player in the Teamster drive.

Ok I have collected 50 AMFA cards and there are much more than that.

 

[Raptorman49]

I'm not Emotional about the drive its a card drive nothing more than that, no reason to make it personal & my opinions are my own observations, didn't say you had to agree with them, In a very short time we will know if my Observations were real or falsely percieved, either way I'm fine with whatever the outcome of this drive is, its just business not personal.

 

[Raptorman49]

Ok I have collected 50 AMFA cards and there are much more than that.

Cool ..... That's great, come to my shop cause there are a lot who haven't signed an AMFA in here so lots of oppertunities.

 

[TWU informer]

Cool ..... That's great, come to my shop cause there are a lot who haven't signed an AMFA in here so lots of oppertunities.

I will be in communications with them next week.

 

[Raptorman49]

I will be in communications with them next week.

Cool its about time an AMFA organizer came in here to get some cards, really the whole cam building hasn't seen a serious AMFA organizer yet from what I'm being told ..... My shop for sure.

 

[AC Tynker]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

 

[aapitbull]

As Informer said you are being attacked because your postion is not one people believe, you say you do not care who wins but you lean toward the teamsters you say you prefer Craft Unionism over Industrial but on another thread you just posted you are impressed that the Allegiant Pilots filed for Teamsters Representation well if you do believe in Craft that would be a strike against them.Finally you calim you are not a big part of the teamsters campaign and yet in 5 days you have made 70 post almost exclusively about how the Teamsters are the easy choice the more popular choice the choice of your shop etc etc. I have been a member here since 2002 and I have 575 post at this rate you will catch me in less than two months.

So you are destroying your own credibilty and niether AMFA or IBT are going to have enough cards in as you say a very short time.

 

[aapitbull]

mistake

 

[Raptorman49]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

I really like some of your comments in this post, I don't agree with all of them of course but many are quite good & very articulate.

 

[Raptorman49]

As Informer said you are being attacked because your postion is not one people believe, you say you do not care who wins but you lean toward the teamsters you say you prefer Craft Unionism over Industrial but on another thread you just posted you are impressed that the Allegiant Pilots filed for Teamsters Representation well if you do believe in Craft that would be a strike against them.Finally you calim you are not a big part of the teamsters campaign and yet in 5 days you have made 70 post almost exclusively about how the Teamsters are the easy choice the more popular choice the choice of your shop etc etc. I have been a member here since 2002 and I have 575 post at this rate you will catch me in less than two months.

So you are destroying your own credibilty and niether AMFA or IBT are going to have enough cards in as you say a very short time.

No one should personally attack anyone for ANY reason, yes I have 20 posts but they all basically say the same thing, not breaking any new ground, just replying to other posters who quote me, making comments on this forum hardly makes me a major Teamster Organizer, hell very few people read this board, I'm just bored & Expressing my opinion ..... No big deal.

 

[aapitbull]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

What I find interesting is you state that you debated back in the day this mean you supported the TWU and since I too was put in bad standing for wearing a shirt and holding a opinion that no matter which side you where on it should be put to a vote. I would say having a trial and throwing people out of the union takes this to the next level wouldn't you?The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts. and remember these were the guys you supported.

Are you here to support the Teamsters now?

 

[Vortilon]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

Gosh, reading your post makes me want to take time and reflect......naw, I don't think so. I'll call BS on your post and who you say you are. Your alias' couldn't be more transparent. I like the way you spin your ficticious story, you know - take us down memory lane. Then name some of the frequent BB posters as being mean spirited - all with a touch of sincerity. You became the even handed victim of those awful AMFA supporters. Things haven't changed much, best you go back into hibernation. Nobody here is buying your story!

 

[Raptorman49]

As Informer said you are being attacked because your postion is not one people believe, you say you do not care who wins but you lean toward the teamsters you say you prefer Craft Unionism over Industrial but on another thread you just posted you are impressed that the Allegiant Pilots filed for Teamsters Representation well if you do believe in Craft that would be a strike against them.Finally you calim you are not a big part of the teamsters campaign and yet in 5 days you have made 70 post almost exclusively about how the Teamsters are the easy choice the more popular choice the choice of your shop etc etc. I have been a member here since 2002 and I have 575 post at this rate you will catch me in less than two months.

So you are destroying your own credibilty and niether AMFA or IBT are going to have enough cards in as you say a very short time.

Correction my 70+ posts, you have been keeping better track of my posts than me .... LOL My definition of a Major Teamster orgainizer is probably different than yours, My definition is someone who attends most stragedy meetings, prints lots of Literature about the subject & even creates his own, goes to Informational meetings, tries to educate many Mechanics on why they should sign, goes collecting cards on most of his breaks & lunch times etc. that's my definition of a Major Organizer & I don't match any of those description on this Teamster drive, I did all that and more during the 2003 AMFA drive but have no plans on that type of dedication to the Teamster drive, as I said I am not a major Teamster Organizer, a few posts on this board mean nothing.

 

[Raptorman49]

Back in 2002 or 03ish I was a member on this board and got tired of reading all the threads full of bickering so I deleted the bookmark. In my "opinion" everything is pretty much the same just different thread topics. In my opinion it's the AMFA unofficial spokespeople around the AA system that are the biggest deterent for myself and other A&P mechanics I know that are adamantly against anything the AMFA organization stands for. I remember when the mechanics were held in bad standing around the base I had a good friend on 4D that I would go talk to and relay contract talk news etc because he couldn't attend meetings. We would get into a friendly debate TWU/AMFA that never had any harsh words exchanged and always ended with a handshake. There were mechanics that would eavesdrop and eventually try to turn our conversation into somekind of verbal battle which totally closed my receptivness to any point they tried to make. The way it seemed and still does is If your belief doesn't mirror theirs then you WRONG! no if ands or buts.

Trolling thru the threads it appears the same mentality prevails just with additional spokespeople but for the most part the same core.

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

The local TWU President that puts out information on the precedings some good, some with a biased spin not realizing or not admitting to himself and others that Line Maintanance can be Outsourced alot easier and alot faster than heavy checks, mods etc. There are companies geared up and gearing up all over the world to do everything from B Checks down to Individual CBT.The thing I laugh at is reading the comments he puts out there in support of a Stores Chairman in Tulsa acting like he knows nothing about what happened to get him suspended when he was elbow deep in everything that went on and probably feels a little bad baiting the Chairman to go totally against everything moral and legal that goes with the oath of being an elected officer no matter what Union it is for.

There is another supporter that prides himself in being small and harps on hiding behind an alias because he was NON Tech Savvy enough to understand how easy it makes it for the blackhats. The more personal info of your identity you put out there the more vulnerable you are to having your identity stolen.(would almost be willing to lay $$ your passwords include family info such as names or birthdates or what fleet you work etc) Who cares who is behind the keyboard, it makes you no more of a man/woman to break the Cardinal Online sin, you need to get more in tune with online security in my opinion.

Then there is your potpourri of some that post decent comments or opinions, others that just want to get somekind of comment out there that's condescending and full of emotion no matter wether they make any sense or how infantile they may be. Someone from AA named after a canine breed flip flop from making sense to the above description.

Those are just some of the spokespeople that turn peoples reception off wether on here or in person around the base. Reading posts from ACTUAL presently Represented or past AMFA membership (thanks for your insight) is a night and day difference compared to most (not all) of the AA AMFA supporters we have trying to recruit support. I truely thought all AMFA was wanna be militants that conveyed the company owed the membership a living.I spent 12 years in the Army Infantry doing the winning hearts & minds thing and you people are totally lost on the technique, although you have the driving people in the oppisite direction down perfect. Whatever negative feedback this post recieves expect no rebutal from me because it's not worth my time or effort. Just giving my perspective after reading all of yours.

'AC Tynker' I for one would enjoy reading more of your post's regardless of which Union you are supporting, I find your post's to be very Articulate & respectful of others opinions, It would be great if EVERYONE on this Board acted in a Professional way instead as you stated did a great job of pushing people in the opposite direction, I am anything but against AMFA but to be honest sometimes it's hard not to want to retaliate against your attacker by being against his cause ...... It's VERY hard.... Ugh !

 

[TWU informer]

snip....

Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish. Also nobody cares if you have 1983 or 1960 Senority, you are still a welder no matter who came up with who fits into the craft. Nothing personal just the way I see it.

....snip

I am not sure I understand your point related to a welder and your apparent confusion on the definition of skilled worker.

There are Department of Labor Standards and National Mediation Board Standards regarding definitions of skilled workers, but these are Federal Government Standards. The one standard that I go by the most is how often an A&P Licensed Mechanic brings me either his broken tool/wrench or his custom tool/wrench and/or his G-Job from home and wants me to fix/weld it for them. Why don't they just weld it themselves? Why would a skilled A&P seek the services of the unskilled welder?

Orville Wright, Wilbur Wright, and Charley Taylor, built and flew an Airplane long before the Federal Government A&P even existed. Not just built the aircraft mind you, but also flew it without any licenses.

Another not so glorious truth is that every non-licensed Machinist and Welder that is surplused on the Tulsa base has gone to the hangar, was stripped of his/her skill premium pay once assigned to the hangar, and did your job without a license, and to my knowledge not one has failed to successfully do the job correctly and many times, better than the hack he/she replaced that had a license.

Please explain in more detail your confusion, and I will try to clear it up for you.