Industrial vs. Craft

[Buck]

So what is the big deal with Raptorman getting suspended? Did he violate the board rules? Apparently so. It is so typical of AA mechs getting upset about somebody being held ACCOUNTABLE. As I've posted before, accountability, or the lack there of, has helped get AA in the predicament we're in. I know! Maybe it will encourage people to follow rules. But, naaah Grow up y'all.

One thing I asked him about several times was his attempts to gain the real names of users on this forum.

 

[Birdman]

But they did their intended damage to our industry first. If nothing else, they will always be the ones known for the men who destroyed the airline union solidarity.

In your opinion, was the fact that they raided other airlines how they "destroyed the airline union solidarity", and if so how is it different from what the IBT is doing to the TWU?

 

[DNTULSA]

In your opinion, was the fact that they raided other airlines how they "destroyed the airline union solidarity", and if so how is it different from what the IBT is doing to the TWU?

You really don't expect a straight answer from anomaly do you?

 

[Birdman]

You really don't expect a straight answer from anomaly do you?

Having frequented these boards for many years I've become accustomed to seeing questions ignored.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to draw your attention to an exchange between myself and Anomaly.

It illustrates the type of misinformation, deflection, spin, and outright lies you already have, and will continue to see as the drive at American progresses.

First, my initial post in the current exchange.

Speaking of "teamster power" how about the major screw job the ibt performed on the cleaners?

Oh sure the ibt mouth pieces on this board and others like to try and fling the cleaners at AMFA all the time, but just take a look at the new UAL agreement.

Under the AMFA (old) agreement, a cleaner topped out at $17.44

Under the ibt (new) agreement, a cleaner now tops out at $14.18

Just another splendid example of "teamster power" .... or lack thereof.

And then Anomalys attempt at a counter....

Psssst, AMFA helped UAL get rid of the cleaners at UAL. Remember??

First, note he completely ignores the main subject - the ibts failure on behalf of the cleaners- and instead tries to deflect to an outright LIE that AMFA "helped" UAL get rid of the cleaners. Nevermind that the premise itself is ridiculous, as that would've been a DFR case of epic proportions if it were true.

Now my response....

The company furloughed the cleaners in bankruptcy, and despite your implied spin AMFA tried to save them.

Nevermind the fact that there are still cleaners from UAL with recall rights, AND CAL currently has active cleaners. From the start of our last CBA negotiations, the ibt claimed they went over BOTH the CAL & UAL agreements and took THE BEST of both, in preparation for amalgamation. The ibt could've left the UAL pay scales alone but they didn't. Since you obviously have a problem with numbers $17.44 is ALOT MORE than $14.18

The ibt and screwed the cleaners. So much for the vaunted power of teamster appointed negotiators

In the initial portion of my response I counter his claims that AMFA "helped" UAL get rid of the cleaners in bankruptcy. *note* after AMFA was unable to save the cleaners in bankruptcy, they were able to negotiate enhanced severance benefits for them.

And Anomalys response...

Oh BS. That is a bunch of crap. The AMFA election just prior to wining the mechanics group began with an appeal to the NMB to have the cleaners removed from our class and craft. AMFA never wanted the cleaners. Don't play coy now. You were one of those who tried repeatedly to have them removed. AMFA never wanted to represent them, much less "tried to save them"

You sir are a common liar...... lol. I have been waiting to say that stupid line

Notice how when he is unable to either defend the ibts actions/inactions that resulted in the cleaner payscale reduction at UAL in our current teamsters-CBA, he tried to deflect to AMFA helping UAL get rid of the cleaners. When he couldn't defend THAT position he then tries to make the claim that I am somehow a liar because AMFA never wanted the cleaners in the first place.

Just as an aside, its also worthy to note he attempts yet another deflection by trying to cite an AMFA attempt to change the class-craft long before the 2002-2003 campaign, not that it would've mattered since AMFA was bound by law to defend the cleaners once they became the certified bargaining agent. Also he seems to forget that several times on this board he has made claims he supported AMFA back then which would make him equally culpable ..... that is if his statements could actually be believed.

Again, this is exactly the type of misinformation, deflection, spin, and outright lies you should come to expect from the ibt as your campaign evolves.

 

[aapitbull]

Through out your entire rant, you never mention the corporations who are the ones profiting from our losses and turmoil. Not just the airlines and their top brass and boards, but the hired lawyers, national administrators and the other charge by the hour professionals hired out by the independent unions. While we lost money at UAL, Seeham, McCormick, and Delle, stole away with hundreds of thousands of our dues dollars.

1.4 million members is not an under representation, but a means to fight. You are just stuck in the "but I am so special" frame of mind. As a Teamster, I am proud to have Garbage Collectors, Truck Drivers, Construction Workers, and Pilots as my brothers in the fight. Believe it or not, there is STRENGTH in numbers.



There was no twist or manipulation on this. I simply highlighted WHAT YOU WROTE. If you disagree, don't write it in the first place.

I wish you and I were standing face to face. Judging on this latest babble of yours, I would definitely call you anti union. This whole post was completely anti Union.

At the same time, while you beat up the Jim's on your post (but I doubt you would do that to their face), you are completely at ease with the fact that in his last year as self appointed national director, Delle made more money than both of the leaders of the TWU and the IBT combined. All this as AMFA had only a minor fraction of the members, and was on the down hill slide. Yes, Delle, thankfully has retired, and Marty is gone. But they did their intended damage to our industry first. If nothing else, they will always be the ones known for the men who destroyed the airline union solidarity. McCormick did exactly what he was paid to do. Weaken ALL the airline Unions.

Corporations are now and always will be the power against which we all struggle, both those in Unions and those without. our discussion centers around why the industrial Unions have failed miserably in the last 58 years. In 1955 it was decided to enter into the political arena to try to reshape society, that led to the labor movement choosing to take sides on issues that divided society the deeper and deeper labor strayed into theses issues the more disenfranchsed many of their on members became. As both sides ratcheted up their rhetoric people started taking sides not based on whether they thought unions where good or bad but on the politics of the unions.
We were no longer seen as being a voice for the worker but as a bully pushing our values on others and attacking them if they did not believe like us. Just as you do today with Dell, Kevin and Lee you even call me Anti-union when you know nothing about me all you know is I disagree with Industrial Unionism so that makes me wrong because I do not want to be represented by the teamsters.

Informer posted a chart that shows the decline in union membership over the last 58 years if those were a result of a business the doors would have been closed decades ago if those were the results obtained in designing a plane ot rocket that design would have been scrapped and they would have started over with a clean sheet of paper. But not you guys you have been pouring money into election politics and dividing your own members and society as a whole for decades all the while losing members year in and year out never once stopping to consider maybe it is something we are doing that is the problem, no it is always someone elses fault. I believe it was Einstein who said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome! So DRIVE ON!!

As far as your wish goes there will be AMFA meetings going on in several cities if we come to your town come on down and call me anti-union to my face I will be at each and every one of them.

 

[AC Tynker]

And American Airlines ushered in the B-Scale all alone without the help of the union on the property. It does not amaze me that the TWU is as powerful today as it was in 1983.

Do you have participation numbers as to what percentage of the membership actually voted or even expressed interest enough to go to meetings when contractual discussions where being held since 1983 ? I don't but from what I have personally seen during my time at AA the numbers are quite low. Whether Industrial or Craft I am pretty sure a Union needs some kind of unity and an involved membership to have any strength but maybe I am wrong.

Does AMFA come with a magic bundle that includes a membership that support the leaders and stand behind them promoting unity among their peers. Do they communicate with one another instead of forming their little anti whatever think tanks that talk about nothing but how bad they hate the Union that is in place. Do they automatically fill the seats during Union meetings and have so many people trying to crowd in that someone makes a motion to either have more meetings or add on to the building to accommodate the unified people that want first hand info instead of what the steward said or someone they know that went tries to relay but is only human and can't remember everything or gets mixed up.

I am thinking our strength and unity will be the same no matter who represents us until someone figures out how to capture the support of the masses and changes our culture at AA which I am willing to bet won't come with a change in Unions. I remember reading a post from an ACTUAL AMFA member at WN I believe that told all of you charter members or wanna be's or whatever I am supposed to call you stating that even while trying run your AMFA drive you needed to go to Union meetings for your current Union and show some involvement to keep us strong while going through bk and that was dismissed as being someone that didn't understand. The negotiators can't even unify and stay strong. Everyone was told or instructed or whatever to bring back the LBO I and take a neutral stance for whatever reason. The Tulsa negotiators did for the most part (can't speak for stores not sure what they did) only to be blindsided within days with the Vote No video from a group of presidents with their own agenda.

Will a Craft Union fix all of that by just mending all broken trusts and magically make everyones agenda the same ? I know I have read here that things can be taken care of democratically by having a percentage of the membership recalling officers or whatever the terminology is but what makes you think we would have enough participation to make that system even work when our meeting that we had with the lawyers in the beginning of BK drew 6 or 8 hundred people and almost half that was spouses out of 5700 +/-.

I do have one idea that may do the trick to get people to a hall, church, public park or whatever a new AMFA local uses if they win. You could do your comedy routine just like you do on here BUCK. I know that usually every post you make on here and the more serious you try to be the harder I laugh. Maybe you could headline at 514 meetings for a couple months to get people used to going and then during your intermission real Union Information could be put out and then bring you back up to finish and you send everyone home with a side ache from laughing during your show not being able to wait til next month.

 

[Anomaly]

Corporations are now and always will be the power against which we all struggle, both those in Unions and those without. our discussion centers around why the industrial Unions have failed miserably in the last 58 years. In 1955 it was decided to enter into the political arena to try to reshape society, that led to the labor movement choosing to take sides on issues that divided society the deeper and deeper labor strayed into theses issues the more disenfranchsed many of their on members became. As both sides ratcheted up their rhetoric people started taking sides not based on whether they thought unions where good or bad but on the politics of the unions.
We were no longer seen as being a voice for the worker but as a bully pushing our values on others and attacking them if they did not believe like us. Just as you do today with Dell, Kevin and Lee you even call me Anti-union when you know nothing about me all you know is I disagree with Industrial Unionism so that makes me wrong because I do not want to be represented by the teamsters.

Informer posted a chart that shows the decline in union membership over the last 58 years if those were a result of a business the doors would have been closed decades ago if those were the results obtained in designing a plane ot rocket that design would have been scrapped and they would have started over with a clean sheet of paper. But not you guys you have been pouring money into election politics and dividing your own members and society as a whole for decades all the while losing members year in and year out never once stopping to consider maybe it is something we are doing that is the problem, no it is always someone elses fault. I believe it was Einstein who said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome! So DRIVE ON!!

As far as your wish goes there will be AMFA meetings going on in several cities if we come to your town come on down and call me anti-union to my face I will be at each and every one of them.

Actually there is no proof that Einstein said that. Most believe the quote first appeared from author Rita Mae Brown in her book Sudden Death on Pg. 68 from 1983. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

It makes me wonder what else in your above statement in questionable. Unions got in to the political arena in 1955? Are you sure about that?

None of this explains your original Drive On comment about anti unions. I still don't get it. Perhaps you can explain it in SFO. I look forward to watching you try.

 

[Anomaly]

One thing I asked him about several times was his attempts to gain the real names of users on this forum.

Like you and Ken do to me all the time?

Sure thing there boss....lol

 

[Anomaly]

In your opinion, was the fact that they raided other airlines how they "destroyed the airline union solidarity", and if so how is it different from what the IBT is doing to the TWU?

Dissatisfaction is human nature. It happens in everything from organizations and clubs, to homeowners associations, to unions. The difference between the IBT and AMFA? Simple. Timing. How many failed campaigns has AMFA launched at AA in the last 50 years? I do not work there so you will have to answer that one for me. I can tell you at UAL there were MANY. All of them came at a time when we were at our weakest, and after each, we were left even more divided.

How many IBT campaigns at UAL? One. At AA? Again, your answer.

AMFA does not have the fortitude, guidance, or self control to sit back and ask themselves, "maybe by continuing this crusade we are actually doing more harm than good?" AMFA has no guiding light or moral principal. They just blindly shoot, regardless of the circumstances. In fact, the worse off the better. Sometimes they hit.

 

[enough already]

Again, this is exactly the type of misinformation, deflection, spin, and outright lies you should come to expect from the ibt as your campaign evolves.

I just put fools like him on ignore. It's less stressful.

 

[Anomaly]

The M&R at AA, while being the largest TWU title group, are the lowest compensated in the industry compared to the other TWU title groups, who are middle to upper rank in the industry. Can you, an IBT member who's union by the way is raiding the TWU, tell the AA mechanics how this "strength in numbers" philosophy, which has failed us here, would be any different under the IBT? You are adamant that we do not support AMFA, who by the way was responsible for over a $7 an hour raise we received in 2001, and want us to believe they have damaged the industry as well?

Yes

 

[Anomaly]

I agree



Paranoia is right I know for a fact that Raptorman doesn't have anymore aliases I really don't know why anyone would.
It would be kind of silly to be in here 2 or 3 times, I like anomaly's explanations it sounds plausible.

Careful Tulsamechanic..... agreeing with me openly could get you attacked by these guys. Next thing you know they will add you to the list of my aliases. :blush:

 

[TWU informer]

I appreciate the explanation. I am NOT Raptor, but denying it wil do me little good. Many on this board believe their opinions are shared by everyone and ONLY a single person with multiple accounts would dare to contradict. It is amusing really.

TWU Informer, is the right name for this guy. I do not know what rule Raptor broke, but it seems fitting that the AMFA flag bearer would turn him in. Turning on each other, unfortunately, is what they do, and a true example of what the AMFA leadership would look like. This was their downfall at UAL.

Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made his bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed and he put himself on suspension. He was even inlcuding some threats along with identification of others.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was. He and everyone else just need to leave the identity of others issue alone and stop violating that policy.

Everyone cannot see another users warn status, but you can see your own if you have been warned

TWU Informer
Veteran
Registered Member
5,946 posts
1 warning points

It is typical Industrial Union thinking to believe that nobody should be held accountable, and that rules are made to be broken. When someone breaks the rules and is caught, then they all blame it on someone else. Just like murderers and molestors who lawyers claim their parents are responsilble. And now the Industrial Unionist even use that thought process as a campaign/debate tool on this forum. Very professional! That is what you get with Teamsters, TWU, and IAM, no rules, unaccountable professionals, and then unable to compete in this industry. Then they want you to vote YES on concessions to save jobs. Their motto is "lower the pay and benefits" but never hold us all accountable. That is Pathetic and Wrong!

 

[enough already]

Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators here to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made hid bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was.

It's easier to blame someone else than to agree that he did something wrong and is being held ACCOUNTABLE for it.