IAM Stepping Up campaign

[700UW]

91%

 

[WorldTraveler]

This poster ignores OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER.

What are the PERCENTAGES of people who actually receive the Delta top out rate for Fleet Service?

no, I told you OVER AND OVER AND OVER that such information is not available to Kevin or anyone else outside of DL headquarters on a system basis.

 
 

Kevin has even stated the ratio of Ready Reserve to Full Time Regular employees is 50/50, so 50% of ACS will only get one raise and never reach top of the scale, never!

 

DL has stated the intended ratio which DL has stated but DL doesn't publish and no one knows the amount of people at each pay step.
 

Alright I just did the EXACT math on how many people we have in Fleet that are at the top out rate according to our computer here at AA, Jetnet.

We have Exactly 8500 FSC. Out of those with the 1 gentleman who just topped out today, there are 7750 who have reached the top out rate. There are 750 EXACTLY left to go.

Anyone good at math who would care to give me the percentage of those that are topped out here in AA fleet?

and that tells who what?

It tells anyone who has observed the industry for 10 years that AA has been in a no-growth mode because its restructuring in 2003 didn't do what it was supposed to do.

AA ended up with higher costs than the industry for much of the past 10 years which limited their ability to grow.

If you aren't at the top of the scale and you look at averages, don't you think you can figure out when you will get there?

If you aren't topped off and the pay scale is known, it isn't hard to factor how long it will take you to get there - all things remaining equal.

If you were hired only 5 years ago, a union isn't going to and hasn't negotiated eliminating steps on the pay scale. The only way to force your way up the average because you aren't topped out is to stick around until you are. There is no union that has forced junior people up the scale at the expense of higher seniority employees.

but let's go back to your public math demonstration regarding the value of profit sharing vs. the TWU negotiated pay raise.

It is public knowledge that DL paid out 8.X% (can't remember if it was 8.3 or 8.3 or more) in profit sharing to every profit sharing eligible employee - based on their annual earnings.

Add in that DL employees received AT LEAST a 2% pay raise and in many cases more than that - and the increase in pay for DL employees far exceeded what the TWU negotiated for its employees.

thank you for showing us once again why what DL employees have is superior to what any union has negotiated for its members in the US industry.

 

[WeAAsles]

91%

Thank you 700. So that leaves only 9% who are not topped out.

I thought someone said that companies don't give out that information? It took me 5 minutes to find that information for my company.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thank you 700. So that leaves only 9% who are not topped out.

I thought someone said that companies don't give out that information? It took me 5 minutes to find that information for my company.

and you calculated it based on seniority lists, not payroll information, right?

or do you have access to AA payroll information?

and you still haven't bothered to explain how knowing that you aren't topped up helps someone who isn't.

When did the TWU ever negotiate higher pay raises for lower seniority workers while holding higher seniority employees from seeing increases?

the only way for a lower seniority employee to reach top out faster is by the highest seniority employees not taking pay raises as fast.

further, DL's airport employee group earned an average salary 6.8% higher than AA's in 2013 even though you would like to crow about how many AA people are topped out.


Doesn't look like DL's employees were the least bit hurt by not having as high of a percentage at the topped out rate.

 

[WeAAsles]

To the readers.

It is the intentional purpose of a particular poster to bomb the page with as many words and posts as he can in an effort for you not to be able to read particular information that would concern you as an individual in your choice. They are mostly of a repetitive nature and are highly verbose.

Seek out those who you think are credible and drown out the rest when you've come to the conclusion who those posters are.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Loved watching weasel screw up on his math.  Not once but twice, lol.  Glad I caught it before he was able to delete it all.
 
DL employees know they got more than 8% of their pay in profit sharing last year.

You are the one who looks like a fool by asserting that a 4% pay raise was worth more.

If the TWU was stupid enough to not believe that AA could be as profitable as DL or couldn't obtain profit sharing as good, then your calculations would be right.

DL employees got more than twice as much as the pay raise that the TWU negotiated between DL profit sharing and their pay raises.

be the man you claim to be and admit you were wrong.

DL people did better with their direct relationship with the company than your TWU could do at AA.
 

since the TWU rocks... go ask all of the furloughed AA folks and Id bet you that the vast majority of them will tell you that the TWU sucks In fact go ask the AA mechanics what they think of the TWU

and an example of precisely why DL employees want nothing to do with the standard legacy carrier union...

I worry about my union brothers and sisters and that's it.

no anger, weAAsles.

I just like taking pot shots at you sometimes  every chance I get.

 

[Kev3188]

no , you haven't answered why you can't leave the discussion regarding unionization at DL to active DL employees.

...And he doesn't have to.

...And neither do you, for that matter...
 

And most importantly your continued activity here shows you really don't trust them to decide for themselves and make the decision.

No it doesn't, any more than what you write indicates that they need to be shielded from "outsiders."

Knock it off.
 
 

no, I told you OVER AND OVER AND OVER that such information is not available to Kevin or anyone else outside of DL headquarters on a system basis.

Actually, it is. The difference is that no one is going to take the time and energy to do it. I'm certainly not...

Note to WeAAsles & 700: AMT & F/A lists are done both as system lists and by base. ACS lists are only by location.

 
 
 
 

DL has stated the intended ratio which DL has stated but DL doesn't publish and no one knows the amount of people at each pay step.

It would be easy to do, but ridiculously time intensive, and not really worth it, given that the explosive growth of the RR program is already known.
 


 

If you were hired only 5 years ago, a union isn't going to and hasn't negotiated eliminating steps on the pay scale.

We had a 5 year scale at NW. Just sayin'...

 

The only way to force your way up the average because you aren't topped out is to stick around until you are. There is no union that has forced junior people up the scale at the expense of higher seniority employees.

Remember, wage rates in a CBA are only a minimum. There's nothing stopping a company from offering more, nor would a union likely fight against, say, hiring at step 3 in a high cost city.

 

It is public knowledge that DL paid out 8.X% (can't remember if it was 8.3 or 8.3 or more) in profit sharing to every profit sharing eligible employee - based on their annual earnings.

Add in that DL employees received AT LEAST a 2% pay raise and in many cases more than that - and the increase in pay for DL employees far exceeded what the TWU negotiated for its employees.

thank you for showing us once again why what DL employees have is superior to what any union has negotiated for its members in the US industry.

Just for fun- and using back of the envelope math- mine worked out to about .84/hr. (net) on an annualized basis. That's using my "all in" pre '09 base rate, and almost no overtime.
 
 

and you calculated it based on seniority lists, not payroll information, right?

Using a system list is certainly reasonable. Even at DL, where one's seniority isn't owned, there aren't a whole lot of exceptions that would skew the results far enough to change any conclusion drawn.

P.S. If this is one of those deals where you are going to try and drive a granular point home, please just save it. Everyone here gets the difference between a system list (and it's dates), and sensitive payroll data...


 

and you still haven't bothered to explain how knowing that you aren't topped up helps someone who isn't.

You know what would suck? Being, say, a Jan. '09 hire, and knowing that over the next several years you will make $1000's less than the guy hired just a couple weeks before you.

But I suppose one could take small comfort in knowing that at least they aren't a RR who will only get one structured raise. Ever.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and the option for other airlines that have unions that won't accept RRs is to subcontract.

You can look directly at UA and see that airlines are going to lower costs and they are going to get it either thru a type of B scale - which AA was able to get from its unions, what, two decades ago - or contract out a city. UA employees with the IAM's full support voted to allow subcontracting out of huge portions of UA's current system.

DL's position has been to protect employees who are already on the scale and to provide a lower scale for those entering the system than to force everyone down.

you might know system seniority for mechanics or FAs but you still don't know pay levels and you won't with any accuracy because there is a percentage of DL FAs who transferred from elsewhere in the company. The same thing is true on the ramp. That phenomenon exists far more at DL than it does at other airlines.

if you want others to participate in the discussion, then so be it.

when people come on here asserting that a 4% union negotiated is superior, I absolutely relish pulling out data to show otherwise.

when they say that they care only about themselves and their fellow union members, they immediately distance themselves from the culture that has made DL great for more than 85 years.

 

[700UW]

At US back after the first chapter 11 PHL was very short staffed, the Union and the company agreed to start them at higher level than entry level.
 
See it can happen.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not talking about starting pay and one time exceptions.

I'm talking about moving an existing employee up the scale faster by allowing them to skip steps as part of a contract.

There is no way that an existing employee can move up the scale faster than a senior employee unless the pay raises at the bottom are higher or senior employees don't get pay rates or they are smaller.

Tell me when and where that has happened.

don't spend too much looking.

 

[southwind]

 
At that point. AMFA was free to withhold their labor (and did), and NW was free to impose their own terms (and did)...

And you and the IAM were free to cross picket lines!

 

[Kev3188]

You can look directly at UA and see that airlines are going to lower costs and they are going to get it either thru a type of B scale - which AA was able to get from its unions, what, two decades ago - or contract out a city.

...Or you can be DL, do both, and add a "C" scale to boot...

you might know system seniority for mechanics or FAs but you still don't know pay levels and you won't with any accuracy because there is a percentage of DL FAs who transferred from elsewhere in the company. The same thing is true on the ramp. That phenomenon exists far more at DL than it does at other airlines.

That's true, but if you'd read what I wrote, I already covered that. There's certainly movement, but not enough to alter a general conclusion in any sort of dramatic way.

if you want others to participate in the discussion, then so be it.

It's not about me.

 

[700UW]

And so did ALPA, AMFA's sister union the PFAA, and the TWU, and the IBT represented pilots at Champion Air flew replacement flights for NW.

 

[Kev3188]

And you and the IAM were free to cross picket lines!

...And free not to...

In all seriousness, you would do well to go back and read some of the many, many threads that are on here regarding AMFA at NW. You'll have to sift through a lot of crap, but there really is some very good stuff to be found from all angles. You may not like unions, but you ARE a member of the working class. Knowing your history is important.

 

[WorldTraveler]

union solidarity?

they didn't care only about their union brothers and sisters?