IAM in T/A - Now we need ratification and the loan

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
Actually, i didn't miss it. Whats YOUR level of education other than your SPECIALIZED A&P? How many Mechs are Dr's, Lawyers, nurses, MBA's? I've flown with pilots AND F/As who are ALL of those.

Well as I told you I've been a mechanic for 22 years. My highest level of education was for a two-year degree. One AS in BA the other in Electronic Technology. How many mechanics are Doctors, Lawyers, nurses or MBAs? I know of one Lawyer and one CPA. Most of us are not here as a hobby, that’s why we don’t want to give back anything more than we have given already. I’ll admit it, I’m not a brain surgeon, I’m just a mechanic but I know what I’m worth. I did my best and helped the company make billions while working under a concessionary contract. Why? Because like it or not we agreed to it and we lived up to our end of the bargain. I will work even harder to help the company now that they are not doing as well. I believe that most of my fellow mechanics, as well as most other airline workers are willing to do the same, but I am not willing to treat the company like a charity. I want what I’ve earned.

Then you should've been a CEO. You could have faught your way to the top based on your own merit instead of union rules and turned the company around...nah, too much work right? If Tilton returns us to profitability by 2004, he's worth every penny!!!!!

Maybe he is worth every penny. But if your saying that he should get whatever he is getting because he earned it then what are you saying about you, and your fellow workers when you say they should give back? Are you saying that he is worth what he is getting but your not? Didn’t all the other workers earn what they are getting? Didn’t you? He gets it simply because he is worth it regardless of the fact that all these other employees who are worth it are accepting pay cuts. Why is it unreasonable to expect him to work for what he is asking thousands of others to live on? How great a feat will it be to bring United to profitability when all its workers are expected to treat it as a charity and accept concessionary wages? Why should he get the credit for saving the company as he pockets millions when thousands are giving up their earnings and making real sacrifices? Who is really paying the price to save the company? Who will walk away with the rewards? If he is getting what he is getting because he is worth it then every other employee who goes to works and produces for the company should take the same position and vote against the concessions. If you expect the airline to return to profitability by 2004 why on earth would you accept concessions to 2008?


Here's the truth. Prior to our new IAM contract

Funny, I thought you were a pilot in ALPA.

But in any case thank the lord you don't work at UAL.

I do. Fifteen years ago I turned down the offer to work for United. The company that I work for is trying, and succeeding at eliminating waste and improving efficiency and productivity. That is their main strategy at restoring profitability. UAL's strategy appears to be to go straight after their workers wallets. This is a temporary fix. It does not address the core reasons why UAL is losing money. Instead of trying to find ways to do things better they are just trying to do things cheaper. If you feel that is a good strategy fine, your betting your livelihood on it.

“We don't know that. Once the loan is repaid, UAL can do whatever it wants. I'm thinking that UAL will want to renegotiate a few of the contracts early. I don't think they want another situation where they have several concessionary contracts expire at the same time. We won't know until the time comes, but hopefully this new guy is wise enough to realize that an early contract is usually cheaper than a late one.â€

When pigs fly. When did United or any other airline ever open up a contract early so they could give raises? You are really in La La land. It’s obvious that you have only been in this industry three years if you actually believe that the company will open up a concessionary contract to give you raises. Why would they? What are you going to do? Threaten to leave and go fly commuters for less money? Go to another airline and maybe make your first flight on a wide body when your 59 years old? I know you will open up your own Law firm or go do brain surgury. Why would he open them early when the RLA allows him to drag it out for years? He can stagger them then. Try talking to a few of those MBAs that you work with, maybe one of them has done a little reading. How old is Tilton? How old will he be in 2008?

 

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
Not true. we find it offensive when other unions cross picket lines (1985?),

ALPA was AFL-CIO. Did they request that other unions honor their pickets or did they figure that it would be of a greater economic impact to have the workers continue to report for work? The APFA used this strategy very successfully in their strike in the early nineties. Besides, trust me Pilots should not throw stones about people crossing picket lines with their History, Continental, PATCO, etc. They did a little better at EAL but I beleive they eventually went back, and crossed.

that's why we don't have a NWA or DAL representing our interest to the company.

??

As for payrates, the new payrates for the 737, A320, 757, and 767 are all roughly in line with the payrates in 1994

How roughly? Your pay structure is more complicated than ours so you need to clarify this. Do you mean New as in just started flying or new as in the consessionary new top rate for that equipement?

McCain usually doesn't vote with the repubs

Maybe, but he used to be for Noble things such as Campain Finance Reform. I supported those efforts but apparently he has unfortunately realized that its more profitable to play ball with the big boys. I think he received $300,000 from the airline industry. Look at Opensecrets.org. I could care less what party the sponsors of S-1327 or the ATSA come from. If they do things that harm us I'm against them. Go ahead and try and make this a Republican vs Democrat debate. I beleive that the topic of this thread is ratifying the concessions.

 

[Bob Owens]

atabuy;
It is easy to make statments when you don't have to back them up.

Well its not like I'm posting under an alias here.

You should have applied yourself and became more than a mechanic. You would have made a very good lawyer.

Is there something wrong with being a mechanic? I like being a mechanic. Thats why I'm doing wahatever I can to preserve and protect the professsion, including spending time here. If you are a mechanic you should consider this Why is your top pay now at around $35 per hour? I'll answer that, because mechanics at NWA raised mechanics pay to that level and AA matched it. So it is in my interest to express myself here. Your concessions will effect me just as my raise effected you, therefore I do have the right to say what I want just as you have the right to ignore it. If you dont want to read what I have to write and just come here to read why you should accept concessions then just scroll on by.

Please go back to your own airline and leave ours alone. We have enough to think about and want to hear from employees who have something at stake here.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 8:24:17 PM Bob Owens wrote:

BSDVR;
"Not true. we find it offensive when other unions cross picket lines (1985?),"

ALPA was AFL-CIO. Did they request that other unions honor their pickets or did they figure that it would be of a greater economic impact to have the workers continue to report for work?


Yes, the AFA DID honor it.


Besides, trust me Pilots should not throw stones about people crossing picket lines with their History, Continental, PATCO, etc. They did a little better at EAL but I beleive they eventually went back, and crossed.

Pilots is pretty big brush to paint with. Tell me when UNITED ALPA crossed a picket line.

"that's why we don't have a NWA or DAL representing our interest to the company."

??


IAM national doesn't credit the employees of United Airlines that they represent with enough intelligence to run it's affairs. National put a former US AIR employee on the BOD seat that United IAM bought to represent thier interest. Remind me again how he voted when faced with the quandry of what is good for UAL vs. what is good for US AIR.

"As for payrates, the new payrates for the 737, A320, 757, and 767 are all roughly in line with the payrates in 1994"

How roughly? Your pay structure is more complicated than ours so you need to clarify this. Do you mean New as in just started flying or new as in the consessionary new top rate for that equipement?

Pilots get paid for seat vs YOS The new contract (the ERP that just passed) pays almost the exact same amount per hour for most NB fleets and seats as it did in 1994 (ie 4th year 757 F/O) and is even LOWER for some.


"McCain usually doesn't vote with the repubs"

Maybe, but he used to be for Noble things such as Campain Finance Reform. I supported those efforts but apparently he has unfortunately realized that its more profitable to play ball with the big boys. I think he received $300,000 from the airline industry.

Other than sex, what did Tom Daschle get from NWA and AMR's lobbyist?

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[Bob Owens]

UAL777Flyer;

With all due respect, what I make is none of your business or anyone else's. I come from the old school mentality where it's simply not polite to ask someone how much they make.

You come from a strange old school if you feel thats its impolite to ask people how much they make but its acceptable to ask people to take a pay cut.

However, I can assure you I am by no means breaking the bank. I occupy a low-level management position for UA as an analyst. I'm sure you can do that math on that and get a decent estimate on where my wages fall.

Not really. Where would I start?

 

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
I guess you've been in the industry too long then. SWA just gave it's pilots a raise with another year left on a concessionary contract.

SWA is getting raises but you're giving concessions. Is their contract still expiring next year or did they get a small increase in exchange for an extension. Come on college boy surely you realize there is more to a book than the cover. Maybe I should have clarified the statement to indicate that the company is not going to open the contract when times are very good and the workforce is in a good bargaining position. Whom do you suppose had the upper hand at the table, SWA or the pilots?

I don't have time to refute all the bunk in your post, this was just the most glaring one, and if I want to talk to an MBA at work, I'll just talk to myself.

I'll accept that as your realization that you do not have valid counterpoints, thus your attempt to flee the discussion. You musnt allow your MBA certified intellect to be one upped by the great unwashed.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 8:03:18 PM Bob Owens wrote:

When pigs fly. When did United or any other airline ever open up a contract early so they could give raises? You are really in La La land. It’s obvious that you have only been in this industry three years if you actually believe that the company will open up a concessionary contract to give you raises.
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[/blockquote]

I guess you've been in the industry too long then. SWA just gave it's pilots a raise with another year left on a concessionary contract. I don't have time to refute all the bunk in your post, this was just the most glaring one, and if I want to talk to an MBA at work, I'll just talk to myself.

 

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
Pilots get paid for seat vs YOS The new contract (the ERP that just passed) pays almost the exact same amount per hour for most NB fleets and seats as it did in 1994 (ie 4th year 757 F/O) and is even LOWER for some.

Yea, yea, bottom line, is the max pay rate for pilots more or less than in 1994?

Other than sex, what did Tom Daschle get from NWA and AMR's lobbyist?

I dont know and at this point dont care. If you want to know look it up at Opensecrets.org or go peek in his bedroom window. If his name goes on S1327, then I will care.

 

[Bob Owens]

wts54;
After loans are paid I will be
watching on the sidelines because
I should retire about the time this
contract is up.Good luck.Hopefully
we will live to fight another day
for a better contract that is.

Ive been hearing that for 20 years. Good luck and I hope that you were wise and fortunate enough to put away enough to enjoy your retirement.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Bob Owens:

Several bones to pick with you. Here are my top two:

You wrote:

You come from a strange old school if you feel thats its impolite to ask people how much they make but its acceptable to ask people to take a pay cut.

WHAT kind of school did you come from? Your satement makes no sense and is really just an ignorant thing to say. Divulging one's salary is hardly comparable to taking a pay cut. When you take a paycut pal, you don't necessarily divulge anything. Your argument is apple to oranges.

You wrote:

Didnt the AFA at UAL strike in the late eighties? Who was flying all the scabs?

Um...maybe you should do your homework. AFA at UAL did NOT strike in the late 80's. Perhaps you were thinking of FA's at TWA that struck and were replaced in the late 80's or the FA's at American that struck in 94 until Clinton called Crandall and turned up the heat. Either way, both statements illustrate that you are not informed.

 

[Bob Owens]

BSDVR;
Pilots is pretty big brush to paint with. Tell me when UNITED ALPA crossed a picket line.

Didnt the AFA at UAL strike in the late eighties? Who was flying all the scabs?

 

[Bob Owens]

wts54;
After loans are paid I will be
watching on the sidelines because
I should retire about the time this
contract is up.Good luck.Hopefully
we will live to fight another day
for a better contract that is.

Ive been hearing that for 20 years. Good luck and I hope that you were wise and fortunate enough to put away enough to enjoy your retirement.

 

[RV4]

[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 4:55:23 PM will fix for food wrote:

RV4.....I asked you a question on another thread and you didn/t answer, but since you kind of brought it up I thought I would ask you here.

You made an allusion that A/A mechanics should be performing the maintenance on Eagle RJ's. If you got your way, what would happen to the Eagle mechanics in the RJ only stations? Furlough?

Sorry to highjack the board UAL....just looking for an answer.
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[/blockquote]

Eagle Mechanics should be merged into AA list if the RJ's are brought into the AA system. And Yes, with their seniority!

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
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On 11/22/2002 8:39:11 PM Bob Owens wrote:



Is there something wrong with being a mechanic? I like being a mechanic. Thats why I'm doing wahatever I can to preserve and protect the professsion, including spending time here. If you are a mechanic you should consider this "Why is your top pay now at around $35 per hour?" I'll answer that, because mechanics at NWA raised mechanics pay to that level and AA matched it. So it is in my interest to express myself here. Your concessions will effect me just as my raise effected you, therefore I do have the right to say what I want just as you have the right to ignore it. If you dont want to read what I have to write and just come here to read why you should accept concessions then just scroll on by.

Bob,
Maybe your airline can afford to pay you the money and still make a profit.
Uals' can't.
Why would we want to protect your interests at the expense of our own.
Revenues cannot support our wages or the wages of any of our groups, thus the concessions.
You can preserve and protect your profession, but you won't keep earning the money you are if your company goes into BK.

We will give up money voluntarily or through BK, and I am for doing it out of court. We are also protecting stock we own. How much stock do you have in your company you would be willing to lose if your company went under?
We also will get options that could offset concessions.

Now you come to our board and ask to protect your interests.
Come on Bob, get a grip.
I won't scroll over your posts. I will debate your reasoning for us to protect your interests at the sacrifice of our own. Every day.

 

[atabuy]

[blockquote]
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On 11/23/2002 10:05:58 AM wts54 wrote:

Bob,I agree with you on reopening the contract
here at the good ship lollipop that would never
happen.Back during the esop they gave us a midterm
wage adjustment per the esop contract.Their offer
was a 2% increase,and keep in mind we were making
BILLIONS IN PROFIT.IMHO UAL or the people who
could have shared that money with all the employees
a little more freely than they did would rather
buy a bottle of clorox and drink it than
reward any hard work and sacrifice of the employees.
The contract in my opinion is to long especially if
the ATSB turns us down for a loan.When ever UAL turns
a profit and I'm sure someday we will they will keep
every penny for themselves.Open a contract early not
in anyone here's lifetime.I agree with much of what
you say in your posts.
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[/blockquote]
wts54,
Did you see the section D which talks about profit sharing.
It will start in 2004 and continue until the end of this contract.

[url="http://www.iam141m.org/141MFinala.PDF"]http://www.iam141m.org/141MFinala.PDF[/url]

I would say this is a start in the right direction for us. You cannot keep going back to past practices. We have a different CEO who I think will do the right thing for all concerned.

Also in the new langauge are provisions for options and selling your esop shares before retirement.
I think this is a better shot than what BK would give any of us.
I hope the majority will agree.