Tentative agreements
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UnitedChicago
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Bob Lott:
When I travel for business, I generally pay the highest fares because it's last minute. I pass these expenses on to my clients.
SO...no...I don't buy cheap tickets.
I'm going back to ignoring you now.
When I travel for business, I generally pay the highest fares because it's last minute. I pass these expenses on to my clients.
SO...no...I don't buy cheap tickets.
I'm going back to ignoring you now.
[STRONG][EM]I suspect Bob Owens would not be so strike happy and willing to give up the farm if he was in the shoes of the suffering. Honestly when the food on your own table and your present way of life is at risk you best think for yourself because regardless of the avid union man's verbal diatribe he too will be watching his own back only. If he was really concerned about the profession as he claims then he would be leading the charge for a nation wide mechanics strike in the event a Judge screw us all. Instead he chooses to tell each of us to fight the battle from a weakened position. [BR][BR]Bob is smart enough to know that as individuals we have little control on the overall outcome of this problem. Yet he is expending valuable time with individual debate instead of leading the charge with the IAM,TWU,IBT,AMFA, and the AFLCIO to mobilize in a concerted effort.[/EM][/STRONG]
gogogadget
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767jetz,
I too work for American and I can tell you that from what I have seen, most of the people I work with, from the ramp to the pilots DO NOT WISH HARM on UAL! We all have friends that work at UAL and for the most part have a lot of respect for them. Do not take your anger out on the general population of American or any other airline employees. You should be upset with Don Carty and Leo Mullin and Bethune and others! Just the same as we should have been mad at Goodwin and the others when we try to get things done and are lobbied against. Seems to be the nature of the beast.
I know for a fact that ALL of the Airlines are salivating over a potential dead carcas of UAL. (Not the employees, necessarily) The same way that UAL is or was salivating over USAir and America West or would if Any other airline was in your shoes. Unfortunately CEO's dont care for the employees, just the shareholders. It is all about the Money.
Having said that, I wish you well in your recovery and I hope that when you do emerge we can get back to the regulary schedueled boxing match we have come accustomed to. You know, beat each others brains out in a civilized manner. (Bragging about our new routes and new planes and everything else trying to 1up one another)
Good Luck and God Speed!
I too work for American and I can tell you that from what I have seen, most of the people I work with, from the ramp to the pilots DO NOT WISH HARM on UAL! We all have friends that work at UAL and for the most part have a lot of respect for them. Do not take your anger out on the general population of American or any other airline employees. You should be upset with Don Carty and Leo Mullin and Bethune and others! Just the same as we should have been mad at Goodwin and the others when we try to get things done and are lobbied against. Seems to be the nature of the beast.
I know for a fact that ALL of the Airlines are salivating over a potential dead carcas of UAL. (Not the employees, necessarily) The same way that UAL is or was salivating over USAir and America West or would if Any other airline was in your shoes. Unfortunately CEO's dont care for the employees, just the shareholders. It is all about the Money.
Having said that, I wish you well in your recovery and I hope that when you do emerge we can get back to the regulary schedueled boxing match we have come accustomed to. You know, beat each others brains out in a civilized manner. (Bragging about our new routes and new planes and everything else trying to 1up one another)
Good Luck and God Speed!
Trip Confirmed
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----------------
On 12/30/2002 1:30:08 PM Bob Owens wrote:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
How incredibly disgusting that anyone could use those partially famous statements to #### about their union contracts.
Denigrating an entire race of people to your whining about salary.
I'm not Jewish, but if I were, I'd be storming your front door.
On 12/30/2002 1:30:08 PM Bob Owens wrote:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
How incredibly disgusting that anyone could use those partially famous statements to #### about their union contracts.
Denigrating an entire race of people to your whining about salary.
I'm not Jewish, but if I were, I'd be storming your front door.
UnitedChicago
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Trip Confirmed:
What's this...I actually can agree with something you say? Bob Lott is disgusting.
Now here's where I disagree once again...
How do you know what the load factors are? Can you provide any back-up to your claim?
It ain't over.
What's this...I actually can agree with something you say? Bob Lott is disgusting.
Now here's where I disagree once again...
How do you know what the load factors are? Can you provide any back-up to your claim?
It ain't over.
Trip Confirmed
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:13:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote:
"The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike."
WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations.
"The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent."
EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements.
"I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid."
Then they can quit. Seems like there are quit a few unemployed mechs in the NYC are.
"And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality."
13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
[/blockquote]
And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose?
Sir,
This is not WWII, Germany, Nazis or Hitler, even if you may see it that way. It's an airline that monkeyed itself into oblivion.
This is not the security of our nation we're discussing here. It's a pathetically run airline that financially, crashed, bigtime.
What's the old 80's expression? Take a chill pill?
Sir, this may disrupt your life a lot, but you must understand that the rest of America WILL get over it.
Braniff,Eastern,PanAm, yada-yada...
I agree your unions may now seem Hitlerish,
but YOU are the ones who voted them in, am I correct?
It's a badly run airline.
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
Talk to your unions as much as you please.
It's over, don't you agree?
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:13:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote:
"The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike."
WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations.
"The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent."
EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements.
"I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid."
Then they can quit. Seems like there are quit a few unemployed mechs in the NYC are.
"And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality."
13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
[/blockquote]
And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose?
Sir,
This is not WWII, Germany, Nazis or Hitler, even if you may see it that way. It's an airline that monkeyed itself into oblivion.
This is not the security of our nation we're discussing here. It's a pathetically run airline that financially, crashed, bigtime.
What's the old 80's expression? Take a chill pill?
Sir, this may disrupt your life a lot, but you must understand that the rest of America WILL get over it.
Braniff,Eastern,PanAm, yada-yada...
I agree your unions may now seem Hitlerish,
but YOU are the ones who voted them in, am I correct?
It's a badly run airline.
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
Talk to your unions as much as you please.
It's over, don't you agree?
[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote: [BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality. [BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR][STRONG][EM]And once again Bob deflects the debate away from aviation into some babbling history lesson about Hitler and the Jews. What does this have to do with aviation or tentative agreements?[BR][BR]Where is the moderator when you need one?[/EM][/STRONG][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote: [BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality. [BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR][STRONG][EM]And once again Bob deflects the debate away from aviation into some babbling history lesson about Hitler and the Jews. What does this have to do with aviation or tentative agreements?[BR][BR]Where is the moderator when you need one?[/EM][/STRONG][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]
synchronicity
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:51:57 PM Trip Confirmed wrote:
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Setting aside Bob Owens idiotic comments (as the grandson of Holocaust survivors, I'm more than a bit troubled by his insistence on equating the persecution and eventual genocide practiced on the Jews to the possibility of a bankrupt airline cutting down an industry-leading contract ), I just wanted to comment that UAL's load factors have actually been very high (and not just from the holiday traffic, although that too has been very high even in comparison to prior year's holiday traffic).
The problem is fares. The butts are in the seats, but they're low paying customers. The people are there, the revenue isn't. The problem is endemic to the industry now: "We lose money on every sale, but make for it in volume".
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:51:57 PM Trip Confirmed wrote:
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Setting aside Bob Owens idiotic comments (as the grandson of Holocaust survivors, I'm more than a bit troubled by his insistence on equating the persecution and eventual genocide practiced on the Jews to the possibility of a bankrupt airline cutting down an industry-leading contract ), I just wanted to comment that UAL's load factors have actually been very high (and not just from the holiday traffic, although that too has been very high even in comparison to prior year's holiday traffic).
The problem is fares. The butts are in the seats, but they're low paying customers. The people are there, the revenue isn't. The problem is endemic to the industry now: "We lose money on every sale, but make for it in volume".
Trip Confirmed
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:13:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote:
"The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike."
WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations.
"The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent."
EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements.
"I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid."
Then they can quit. Seems like there are quit a few unemployed mechs in the NYC are.
"And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality."
13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
[/blockquote]
And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose?
Sir,
This is not WWII, Germany, Nazis or Hitler, even if you may see it that way. It's an airline that monkeyed itself into oblivion.
This is not the security of our nation we're discussing here. It's a pathetically run airline that financially, crashed, bigtime.
What's the old 80's expression? Take a chill pill?
Sir, this may disrupt your life a lot, but you must understand that the rest of America WILL get over it.
Braniff,Eastern,PanAm, yada-yada...
I agree your unions may now seem Hitlerish,
but YOU are the ones who voted them in, am I correct?
It's a badly run airline.
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
Talk to your unions as much as you please.
It's over, don't you agree?
----------------
On 12/30/2002 8:13:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote:
"The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike."
WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations.
"The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent."
EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements.
"I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid."
Then they can quit. Seems like there are quit a few unemployed mechs in the NYC are.
"And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality."
13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become
----------------
[/blockquote]
----------------
[/blockquote]
And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose?
Sir,
This is not WWII, Germany, Nazis or Hitler, even if you may see it that way. It's an airline that monkeyed itself into oblivion.
This is not the security of our nation we're discussing here. It's a pathetically run airline that financially, crashed, bigtime.
What's the old 80's expression? Take a chill pill?
Sir, this may disrupt your life a lot, but you must understand that the rest of America WILL get over it.
Braniff,Eastern,PanAm, yada-yada...
I agree your unions may now seem Hitlerish,
but YOU are the ones who voted them in, am I correct?
It's a badly run airline.
Here are the key words. LOAD FACTOR.
You don't have them , and you'll never get them back,especially now.
Talk to your unions as much as you please.
It's over, don't you agree?
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