IAM in T/A - Now we need ratification and the loan

[Boomer]

Segue,

I agree that the contract is between two legal persons and that it states the terms and conditions under which it can be re-negotiated or terminated. The law defines a legal person as being an individual or a legal entity(a Corporation, Partnership,...etc.)

It is not unusual for individuals or companies to define the terms of compensation and require prepayment if the conditions are changed. In essence, a Union is negotiating on behalf of the shareholders (represented employees) to provide a service over a defined period of time and under defined circumstances for a defined amount of compensation.

Unlike any other industry, however, legal persons covered by the RLA are treated differently. When one of the parties reneges; the Union is prevented from ceasing specific performance even though other individuals are obtaining benefits that are not contractrual obligations...ala the 6 million bonus paid to an airlines executives during the same period in which the employees are prevented from walking out.

As for the Seniority system and the benefits...I agree. By the time some figure everything out and want to leave, the hold of the velvet handcuffs is so firm as to require a long look before leaving.

 

[johnny gearpin]

kcabpilot writes...how this company has dealt with those of us in the maintenance division... AND atabuy writes, You tend to treat others as you have been treated.

atabuy,
If you think none of us 'complaining' have ever tried to implement a positive fix? You are flat out wrong! I entered with a group of 188 with only dozen fresh from A&P school. As part of one of the first large off the street hirings in years, UAL got years of experience from majors, regionals, commuters and military backround. (unlike the 88-90 group-NOT BASHING-wish I hired straight in) Within the next four months +240. You know what we heard? Well 'Back in San Fran' , 'This isn't TWA, etc.' or 'You just don't know United.' The midnight 767 HMV line was 98% new hires...even the 2 foreman and 10 leads were new (to their positions). We had ideas and most of all enthusiasm. I swear we scared them. Maybe intimidated them. United has the tendency to ruin even the best mechanics.

Let me put it another way. UAL had every intention of laying us off when we all got too expensive. AND IT SHOWED! In the way we were treated. The last three years getting dumped on. Quality of life. Ha! Productivity is not in the recovery plan for mechanics. If it was, taking your 1st four days of vacation w/o pay would not be there. Efficiency is! However, it's is in between doing more with less and keeping the building somewhere above freezing.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/24/2002 6:13:30 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Enough already with blaming everything on 9-11. The fact is that between all four airplanes there was a total of around 200 people, or about 1 full airplane. That equates to a 25% load factor.

----------------
[/blockquote]

What was the system wide load factor prior to 911? Do you think there aren't some flights that still have a similar LF? Do you think it possible that those flights came in the night before with 85% LF? why do you think they chose those particular flights?

 

[Bob Owens]

Unitedchicago;
Who bears the ultimate responsibility for the performance of the company? Management. You will now say that the former management has paid the price for their failure but have they? Sure the top guy may have resigned but he did so with a hefty reward for his dis-service to the employees and shareholders of UAL. If Tilton is really worth what he and you claim he is then his contract should be backended and entirely subject to the performance of the company. I'm sure that he has accumulated a sufficient amount of assetts to survive for a few years. It would show the employees of UAL that he is not just another smooth talking salesman just like all those executives that passed through EAL,Pan Am, TWA, Branniff etc in their final days. All the employees at those airlines said the same thing as they gave into concessions,this guy is different, give him a chance well the fact is you will end up giving him more than a chance you will be giving him money out of your paycheck. While you are all expected to do with less he will be stuffing your money in his pocket.

Enough already with blaming everything on 9-11. The fact is that between all four airplanes there was a total of around 200 people, or about 1 full airplane. That equates to a 25% load factor. The load factors now are almost triple that. The problem is they are not charging enough. If people werent flying because of the fear of terrorism then they wouldnt fly even if it were for free. Does that make sense to you? In this business it sometimes pays to lose money, especially if it could result in long term concessionary contracts. If the company is really in such dire straits then why dont they go for a year to year contract? Oh yea, the ATSB, how convenient!

 

[Segue]

Wow, a simple formula! Charge more, then you can make some money. Too bad there is supply and demand. Damn Adam Smith!

 

[UnitedChicago]

Bob Owens:

I do hear you. Goodwin and his palls - Dutta and Stoddert - got the shove but with nice parachutes.

Sure it would be great if Tilton would have taken the job with a contract that tied his compensation to the successful, long-term recovery of United.

But, that is simply not an option. What would motivate an outsider to the airline industry (and outsiders were the only credible candidates for the job) to sign such an agreement? Especially when this individual would be stepping into a company facing the biggest crisis in their 75 year history. This person is taking a big professional risk.

Also, you state: It would show the employees of UAL that he is not just another smooth talking salesman just like all those executives that passed through EAL,Pan Am, TWA, Branniff etc in their final days.

With the exception of EAL, I must disagree. At Braniff, Harding Lawrence was at the helm from 1965 until he was ousted in 1981. John Casey was named CEO and added Howard Putnam to the President's post. During the final days, both men gave up their pay and essentially earned $1 per year. In terms of TWA (post Icahn) and Pan Am...I don't agree that the CEO's in the final days were smooth talking salesmens.

Sorry Bob...but I still have issues with your generalizations and lack of solid facts or back-up to your posts.

 

[hommegros]

[< Enough already with blaming everything on 9-11. The fact is that between all four airplanes there was a total of around 200 people, or about 1 full airplane. That equates to a 25% load factor. The load factors now are almost triple that. The problem is they are not charging enough. If people werent flying because of the fear of terrorism then they wouldnt fly even if it were for free. Does that make sense to you? In this business it sometimes pays to lose money, especially if it could result in long term concessionary contracts. If the company is really in such dire straits then why dont they go for a year to year contract? Oh yea, the ATSB, how convenient. ]>
******************************************************
Bob,
You are a raving idiot???
9/11 had no effect on the economy and the flying public???
UAL was doomed to fail without 9/11 and 9/11 has nothing to do with the current situation???

GET A GRIP!!!
Step outside and look around!!!
The United States Airline infrastructure is in a shambles!!!
The United States Economy is as fragile as an egg shell!!!
We could be at WAR with Iraq 'TODAY'!!!
WTF don't you understand???
Hommegros

 

[mastermechanic]

An analysis by one competitor that is making the rounds on Capitol Hill contends that labor costs for United's pilots will in fact rise 16 percent over the next six years because pension costs more than offset the savings from the wage concessions. The analysis argued further that when compared with what pilots earned in October 2000, before their most recent contract, hourly rates are as much as 17.7 percent higher even after the concessions, based on the type of aircraft each pilot flies.

Mr. Brace noted that the loss of four days a year in vacation, which the machinists promised to give the airline under their concessions agreement, means that the pay cuts of 6 to 7 percent, depending on job classification, actually yield a savings to the airline of 8 to 9 percent. The pay cuts begin to be restored at the end of 2004. Mr. Brace offered to pledge to put the loan guarantees into a separate fund that would not be used for these increases.

Mr. Brace said that when wages and benefits are taken into account, Uniteds machinists' compensation rates are among the industry's lowest.

Not my words, just my editing...interesting, don't ya think

 

[wts54]

Flights were chosen for fuel load.

 

[wts54]

Bob,have any thoughts about why they are charging such low
fares?Maybe this crisis is somewhat manufactured to slow down
and or reverse employees wages at the major carriers.I have a
gut feeling management of all the airlines are in this together.

 

[hommegros]

mastermechanic,

[

If you have an alternative solution, I'm sure that my constituents and I would appreciate a solution that would not involve concessions.

Looking forward to your reply.

Hommegros

 

[UnitedChicago]

wts54:

Get over your conspiracy theories. You really think that the airlines have all conspired to keep prices low to drive labor costs down? Nice try.

Maybe we should all ask Bob Owens his salary since he doesn't think the question insulting or too personal. Also..Bob what's your social security number? Your visa number? You seem so willing and open to share personal info...why stop at you salary?

 

[aircraft_artificer]

United Chicago you wrote get over your conspiracy theories...
I would not dare to speculate about collusion between the airlines to keep prices down to drive down labor costs, though I would not totally disregard any thought along this line as bunk.
They do however collude to KEEP WAGES DOWN. Maybe your are unaware of a little thing called The Airline Industrial Relations Conference You can read more about it at www.aircon.org
This is but one of their tools. Besides Jake says when all things are considered we are amoung the lowest paid. He also says they agreed to the wages in 2000. Sorry but the agreement for the mechanics was signed in March '02. AFTER the infamous Goodwin letter.
Looks to me a little like agreeing to pay rent at a certain amount, then coming back later and saying you can't afford that amount and would like to change it. I'm sure the apartment manager would readily agree,LOL.

 

[wts54]

UnitedChicago
Yes I think its entirely possible.At least Im open minded enough
to entertain the thought unlike you.Stranger things have happened.

Untied.com has received numerous complaints from mechanics at the Charleston AFB regarding UAL, and they all tell roughly the same story. One very common thread, mentioned again here, is the torque wrench: Despite not having the proper tool to torque engine bolts properly, the mechanics were forced to sign off on the maintenance reports, falsely indicating that the bolts had been torqued properly. As always, we welcome UAL to respond.

I worked 14 years as an aircraft mechanic for united Airlines.I had a spotless record and had been recognized for outstanding work by both United and Boeing. I traveled extensively to maintain and repair engines on out-of-service aircraft as a member of emergency field service. I was qualified in many areas including the ground taxi and engine run of 747-400s and 777s. I accepted a bid and left Chicago to perform contract work on U.S. Airforce C17 cargo plane engines at Charleston SC AFB.

After arriving in Charleston it became very evident that local management was not following standard FAA, Air Force, or company policies. Many safety issues were overlooked and ignored. Paperwork concerning Air Force engines was falsified. Tooling for critical tasks was unavailable at the station, yet required a mechanics signature stating that the tooling was used. Mechanics were intimidated to sign for the work. Mechanics were asked to ignore, and even hide engine discrepancies!

Untited supervisors were approached by several mechanics about these issues. As the mechanics' safety representative, I was one of those that inquired about these issues. I was threatened with job loss if I did not keep quiet. I asked the three supervisors about the issues repeatedly. I was threatened repeatedly. My qualifications were revoked and I was told I would be discharged soon for lack of qualifications. Without being able to attain qualifications of my own, I was still assigned to train others on critical operations!

I flew to Chicago and met with a labor manager named Carl, to inform him of the improper behavior of Charleston's management. Carl advised me that my identity would not be revealed. I was encouraged to reveal information to him. After arriving back in Charleston a supervisor came to me and demanded to know why I had complained to headquarters. He said he was going to discharge me for reporting the violations.

I have now passed two separate polygraph tests given to me by the U.S. AirForce OSI/FBI. I am protected under the federal whistle blowers act. I have been told that there is an ongoing criminal investigation into United's supervision. I am still co-operating with investigators. The Attorney General's office has now become involved. I am told that the arrests may be made very soon.

United refused to give me benefits and all pay due after my discharge. My repeated requests have been ignored. United VP Andrew Studdert was well aware of the complaints I filed, since I faxed them directly to him. SC Congressman Henry Brown Jr. wrote a letter to United for a response to the charges. He asked that they respond to me, but that response never came. Congressman Brown has been very supportive.

United supervision is guilty of Corporate Terrorism. This blatant disregard for the lives and safety of my fellow mechanics and U.S. Airmen is truly a crime. United now tries to hide behind a loophole in the law that gives a whistle blower only 30 days to report wrong doing. Surprise, surprise,...this case they will lose, as I reported illegal activity within the 30 days!

I would like to mention that this kind of activity is something I never experienced in Chicago. The supervision in Charleston seemed to have commited so many violations that they chose to force a coverup. United refuses to accept the fact that some managers are corrupt. It is very likely that over 200 engines are affected. Four mechanics protested officially, four were fired. On behalf of the honest mechanics I would like to extend prayers and apologies to all military personnel. My case is now awaiting arbitration.

Doug Niven (with permission)

January 20, 2002

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 11/25/2002 1:57:51 AM wts54 wrote:

Flights were chosen for fuel load.
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[/blockquote]

And load factor. there are flights heading off to other places with more gas. These were merely transcons. Do you think they took practice runs on flights to see what the capts fuel loads were? Or maybe they were seeing if there was a manageble number of pax.