How The Merger Went Down...

[jsn25911]

APFA has really created a MESS that I don't ever see any alleviationn until we all work together.

Another thought: If AA needed so much money to operate - where in the hell is it getting the money to purchase a shuttle? They have played this union like a "FOOL"

I agree with you that the union really created this mess, not AA.

On the possible shuttle purchase, would you rather that another airline get the US shuttle for a cheap price or would you rather that AA buy it (increasing AA's revenue and increasing the odds that former TWA FAs eventually get recalled)?? I'm in favor of the latter, not the former.

Where is AA getting the money? Concessions, sale of Orbitz stock, sale of convertible notes, operating cash flow, etc. $3 billion in the bank and eight times that much in debt, but sometimes you gotta spend money to make money.

Your theory was very interesting to me - because this is exactly why AA purchased TWA. However, rather than people acknowledging the advantages of the many things that TWA brought to AA - the apposite has been stated.

My heart goes out to the US employees, I hope whatever happens - it works out for them also.

 

[L1011Ret]

Let me see if I can take a shot at the short version of the brief:
1. The complaint is not being brought under the RLA - Railway Labor Act. It is in the Federal Court system as a "tort."
2. At its simplest it says you promised "fair and equitable" and that was not the result. Therefore we can sue for breach of promise. AA promised this in writing, to the bankruptcy court and to the Congress. If a contractor agrees to install a new kitchen in my house and does not live up to what we agreed both verbally and in writing, I can sue for damages.
3. AA believed APFA would meet with IAM and the facilitator to settle seniority issues. APFA would not meet. Carty was well aware that APFA would not meet and that seniority issues were not being attended to as he promised.
4. AA and APFA were meeting behind closed doors to come up with the SIA all the while still promising "fair and equitable."
5. AA and APFA were settling the seniority issues even when TWA F/As were not yet AA employees.
6. In so doing, AA and APFA colluded to deprive TWA F/As of "fair and equitable."
7. So, the TWA F/As have every right to sue for damages and that is just what they are doing. They are NOT suing for seniority. It is my guess that since TWA F/As started getting furloughed right after 9/11, that damages could be very, very large.
8. Be reminded that this has almost nothing to do with what is in the APFA contract.

It is my understanding that the next hurdle in this process will be the motion to dismiss. Briefs have been submitted. The TWA F/A legal representative is requesting oral argument before the Judge on motion to dismiss. This will be scheduled shortly.
It is this writers opinion that the motion to dismiss will be denied. It is possible AA and APFA will appeal the denial of the motion to dismiss. But if they do not, the next step will be depose witnesses. That would complete discovery.

At that point it will become very interesting as to whether any attempts at settlement occur before proceeding to the jury trial. As they say, "you takes your chances in front of a jury." The jury will have opportunity after opportunity to assess the motivations of APFA and AA. Given APFA's actions against the TWA F/As, I don't think APFA will look very good in terms of motivation and credibility. The jury is not just stuck reading dry legal briefs.
The eventual outcome? In this writer's opinion, there will be some sort of negotiated settlement but I have no idea what it will look like. I do however believe that the anxieties of AA F/As about what will happen - all those senior TWA F/As will move into LAX and fly LAX-NRT are way overblown.

 

[Garfield1966]

I tried to read that post by TWA but I fell a sleep after "Trough this case.... " Sorry, been at work for 8 hours and I just do not have the energy.

Question.

Do we believe that the future of the TWA folks would have been different if 9/11 had not occurred? The business articles I have read seemed to indicated that had 9/11 not occurred, the general consensus was that the purchase of TWA by AA was a great opportunity. AA was able to expand without the usually costs and time. If this is the case, will the courts take that into consideration?

Second question.

I am trying to figure out what AA’s roll was in all this. You wrote that AA and the APFA got together and tried to decided the seniority issue. I thought that was the sole domain of the APFA. Did AA have any say over that?

Given the economic situation and the unforeseen events of 9/11, could it not be argued that the results were as fair and equitable as they were going to get given the fact that the APFA just stapled the TWA folks to the bottom?

By the way, what was the original agreement? Was the term “fair and equitableâ€￾ ever defined? Seems kind of ambiguous.

Sorry for all the questions. I know scheduling hands down but I have pretty much steered away from all this stuff since it did not pertain directly to me but I now find my self curious and having more questions than answers.

 

[L1011Ret]

As to the seniority issue, APFA and IAM were to negotiate that. However, AA ended up negotiating with APFA the seniority issue. The agreement, SIA, must be agreed to by the parties doing the negotiating. APFA just cannot staple and fence at their will. A union must negotiate the terms and conditions as the terms and conditions all have economic costs to AA.
Second, 9/11 has nothing to do with this. The determining date for all these issues will I assume be 4/10/01.

 

[LiveInAHotel]

1. The scope provisions of the APFA contract were only recently added...AFTER the TWA purchase.

It was already negotiated prior to the buyout of TWA. It was something that the nAAtives wanted in our new/old contract. It wasn't added because AA was buying TWA.

I flew with a former TWA f/a who left when the going was getting tough at TWAY. Her name is Kathy and she said that she was glad to get out before the final fall of TWA. TWA would have never survived after 9/11 and all of you know that.

The seniority thing as I have said before is DEAD! You're not going to get the integration you all want. The LOA between APFA and the IAM will kill the entire lawsuit for all of you. I think you need to be looking at filing a lawsuit against the union who sold you out...IAM!

 

[Veritas]

The LOA between APFA and the IAM will kill the entire lawsuit for all of you.

There NEVER was such a letter of agreement. The APFA never even talked to the IAM. That is probably the strongest claim in the law suit. Even Rock Salomon agrees on that point.

 

[jsn25911]

There NEVER was such a letter of agreement. The APFA never even talked to the IAM. That is probably the strongest claim in the law suit. Even Rock Salomon agrees on that point.

liveinahotel - just states things to keep everyone in denial. I wouldn't worry to much about his statements - he is just trying to cope with truth and the only way he can cope is deny everything and try to convince others into his "protective head in the sand" position.

Liveinahotel - it will come about - believe what you may (which is without substance)

 

[LiveInAHotel]

it will come about - believe what you may (which is without substance)

All of the TWA f/a's are so bitter about this, it makes us nAAtives laugh. The IAM SOLD YOU ALL OUT not the APFA. The APFA had no obligation to protect your seniority at all. This is something the IAM should have battled for and they didn't.

Veritas,

I know that AA/APFA have some kind of LOA on hand. It something that Ward/Carty had done prior to letting the buyout be a final deal. The LOA states the seniority dates for all the TWA flight attendants (4-10-03 and 12-17-03). It was agreed upon with someone at TWA for the deal to be complete. You can contact APFA Communications Coordinator George Price at (800) 395-APFA or email him at [email protected] and he will let you know what it is all about. The bottom line is the TWA f/a's will not get their DOH for bidding purposes. They only got DOH for pay and benefits. Just look, they all got their gold wings and didn't even work 5 years at AA to get them. AA should have given them silver wings and made each of them earn their gold! Even the Reno f/a's had to earn their gold wings.

 

[TransWorldONE]

Hmmm...So the IAM sold us out. Maybe thats why they are funding our lawsuit, funded with dues from real union brothers and sisters at other major airlines. Continue to laugh at us, the rest of the airline community feels a much more serious emotion regarding this entire extermination. You laugh at us and we just pity someone like you. Never have so few caused such a furor with so many.

 

[Borescope]

You guys can debate for ever here. Why wear out your keyboard, a judge will eventually decide it.

 

[Veritas]

Veritas,

I know that AA/APFA have some kind of LOA on hand. It something that Ward/Carty had done prior to letting the buyout be a final deal. The LOA states the seniority dates for all the TWA flight attendants (4-10-03 and 12-17-03). It was agreed upon with someone at TWA for the deal to be complete. You can contact APFA Communications Coordinator George Price at (800) 395-APFA or email him at [email protected] and he will let you know what it is all about. The bottom line is the TWA f/a's will not get their DOH for bidding purposes. They only got DOH for pay and benefits. Just look, they all got their gold wings and didn't even work 5 years at AA to get them. AA should have given them silver wings and made each of them earn their gold! Even the Reno f/a's had to earn their gold wings.

I know the history of the negotiations better than George Price ever will. He has been spewing misinformation on this issue for so long that he probably no longer remembers what actually transpired.

All the TWA unions, including the IAM, waived the Scope and Successorship clauses of their Collective Bargaining Agreements in return for American Airlines' promise to hire a facilitator and use its best efforts to obtain fair and equitable seniority integration agreements between the unions involved.

Only the APFA refused to partake in any talks or negotiations with its counterpart union at TWA. To make things worse, the airline then secretly met with the APFA and sealed a deal to staple the TWAers without any discussions with the TWA flight attendants' union. This is a direct breach of the company's promise to use its best efforts to facilitate an agreements between the unions.

Here is Rock Salomon's take on this point:

This should have been the end of the story, but it's not. John Ward failed to seal the deal by fulfilling his obligations during the merger/acquisition, therefore, leaving Pandora's box open. Now TWA has solid grounds for legal recourse, which very well could result in the TWA flight attendants getting their partial, or even full integration seniority.

Had I been president during the merger/acquisition, I would have handled the situation pretty much the same as John with the exception that I would have taken the time to talk with the TWA flight attendants and let them voice their concerns. That doesn't mean that I would have forgotten whom I represent. It just means that I wouldn't have been afraid to tell them directly that APFA members wanted them stapled to the bottom, and that I was going to staple them to the bottom per my obligation to my members. I wouldn't have hidden behind a door and refused to return phone calls. I would have left my door open and answered my phone.

http://www.newapfa.org/QA.htm

 

[jsn25911]

Veritas,

I know that AA/APFA have some kind of LOA on hand. It something that Ward/Carty had done prior to letting the buyout be a final deal. The LOA states the seniority dates for all the TWA flight attendants (4-10-03 and 12-17-03). It was agreed upon with someone at TWA for the deal to be complete. You can contact APFA Communications Coordinator George Price at (800) 395-APFA or email him at [email protected] and he will let you know what it is all about. The bottom line is the TWA f/a's will not get their DOH for bidding purposes. They only got DOH for pay and benefits. Just look, they all got their gold wings and didn't even work 5 years at AA to get them. AA should have given them silver wings and made each of them earn their gold! Even the Reno f/a's had to earn their gold wings.

I know the history of the negotiations better than George Price ever will. He has been spewing misinformation on this issue for so long that he probably no longer remembers what actually transpired.

All the TWA unions, including the IAM, waived the Scope and Successorship clauses of their Collective Bargaining Agreements in return for American Airlines' promise to hire a facilitator and use its best efforts to obtain fair and equitable seniority integration agreements between the unions involved.

Only the APFA refused to partake in any talks or negotiations with its counterpart union at TWA. To make things worse, the airline then secretly met with the APFA and sealed a deal to staple the TWAers without any discussions with the TWA flight attendants' union. This is a direct breach of the company's promise to use its best efforts to facilitate an agreements between the unions.

Here is Rock Salomon's take on this point:

This should have been the end of the story, but it's not. John Ward failed to seal the deal by fulfilling his obligations during the merger/acquisition, therefore, leaving Pandora's box open. Now TWA has solid grounds for legal recourse, which very well could result in the TWA flight attendants getting their partial, or even full integration seniority.

Had I been president during the merger/acquisition, I would have handled the situation pretty much the same as John with the exception that I would have taken the time to talk with the TWA flight attendants and let them voice their concerns. That doesn't mean that I would have forgotten whom I represent. It just means that I wouldn't have been afraid to tell them directly that APFA members wanted them stapled to the bottom, and that I was going to staple them to the bottom per my obligation to my members. I wouldn't have hidden behind a door and refused to return phone calls. I would have left my door open and answered my phone.

http://www.newapfa.org/QA.htm

veritas - I wouldn't waste my time on liveinahotel - he just likes to "stir the pot". I wouldn't waste my time on someone just trying to create misinformation (probably because he knows that TWA does indeed have a good case)

 

[Hopeful]

100%, 25%, 4/10/01....depending on station.

 

[L1011Ret]

Any award by an arbitrator to TWA F/As as a result of their lawsuit will not look like the mechanic and related awards.

 

[QQ3270]

I have one word Bankrupt take how you like it Reno air = Profit


TWA broke as hell facts