I doubt that's what happens in those foreign MROs where there's only one licensed mechanic for 10 or 50 or 100 unlicensed helpers.
Hidden concession TWU gave USAir?
- Thread starter chellow
- Start date
I doubt that's what happens in those foreign MROs where there's only one licensed mechanic for 10 or 50 or 100 unlicensed helpers.
How would you know? The FAA doesn't seem to care because they don't even visit those places. Would you want to sign off the work of these guys? I can tell you I don't. I'll sign my own work off any day but not some moron who wouldn't know an MD80 from a 737.
Re-read my post. I said that I doubted that the licensed mechanic watched the unlicensed helpers do their work at the foreign MROs.
Does a licensed mechanic watch over Dave's shoulder as he welds or does someone with a license check his work? When Goose still worked as a tool & die guy, did someone with an A&P shadow him around all day or did someone merely check his work?
Desert Snake
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2009
- Messages
- 61
- Reaction score
- 29
That was my point, I know it doesn't happen. Just like I'm sure most of those guys probably can't read the mm to perform the work per the manuals. Even though it's in the FARs to be a requirement. All U.S. carriers should be bringing back maint in house.
blue collar
Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
- Messages
- 1,241
- Reaction score
- 901
Maybe they can have unlicensed people just install the seats! Oh wait... They already did that...
If they're having trouble finding licensed people who are good, don't you think it'd be even harder to find unlicensed people who are good? If you were able to find them, then you'd have to find mechanics who would be willing to sign off work for those individuals, which would be even harder to find.
If they're having trouble finding licensed people who are good, don't you think it'd be even harder to find unlicensed people who are good? If you were able to find them, then you'd have to find mechanics who would be willing to sign off work for those individuals, which would be even harder to find.
scorpion 2
Veteran
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 539
- Reaction score
- 562
Thats some pathetic logic. If those guys installed a gear box on an engine or hung an engine on an aircraft then I would hope someone were standing right on top of them while they did it. Just like I would hope they would have someone looking over my shoulder if I were welding or running a machine since I suck at both!
Welders and machinists sign off their own work. The licensed A&P mechanics are expected to sign off the work of non licensed people in MROs. It doesn't matter to the managers at these places if they see the work accomplished or not. Obviously the FAA doesn't care unless the place of business is located in the USA. AA would like to have the same set up and the TWU would love to help them.
topDawg
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2010
- Messages
- 2,957
- Reaction score
- 2,298
Delta has ASMs in the hangar in Atlanta(and MSP now that they have the 145 cert). I personally would rather have some ASMs around vs seeing Atlanta end up like SFO is for United now. I can think of a ton of work/shops that would be gone tomorrow if they didn't have the mix of ASMs. (plus who knows what it would do to the MRO work.)
just my opinion though.
My guess is as a certified welder he signs for his own work.
The problem with the FAA is they really don't seem to care if the work is actually done right as long as there is a signature attached so they have someone to hang should something go wrong.
Exactly, what those who say that we are so easy to replace seem to forget is that if we are so easy to replace then why haven't the airlines gone to having one guy sign for the work of 50 others on the line? Why is UPS forking over $54/hr to their mechanics and SWA over $45? The real question is why did we agree to work for so much less? I asked the question if the FAA would certify a Maintenance program at an airline designed around the use of unlicensed mechanics who simply have their work signed off by A&Ps years ago and the answer I got was that even though the FAA does allow certain things to take place in an MRO environment its not likely that the FAA would approve a maintenance program for an airline based upon the use of Unlicensed mechanics to preform the work with a licensed mechanic just signing for it. They would not want to see unlicensed or untrained mechanics debriefing the flight crews. In the real world staying compliant is hard enough with trained mechanics, let alone just some guy you picked up standing outside of Home Depot. AA only has licensed A&Ps on the line and the majority in the bases are A&Ps, yet even AA was at risk of losing their certification at one point. In other words if AA didn't make moves to address their maintenance problems the FAA was going to stop them from flying, and that was with an experienced mostly licensed workforce. Maybe it was just some pissed off Inspectors but thats what we were told. Delta does use ASMs, but they are students in school and their numbers are limited. Its basically a junior Mechanic program. So yes the way the law is written one may conclude that an airline could just hire a handful of licensed A&Ps and have unlicensed workers do all the work, but in practice it would not work, the FAA probably would not buy off on such a program and thats why no airline has even tried to do it. The FAA looks at line maintenance differently than a shop environment. Thats not to say that in the future, when there aren't enough A&Ps out there to be had that the FAA wont change but thats how its been. If all the carriers are on the same page demanding a lowering of standards the FAA will comply, look at how well they did blocking proposals for increased security prior to 9-11 and how well that worked out!
The problem is that when you negotiate for a contract you start off with a divided workforce and they can play off the lower paid ASMs off higher paid AMTs. At AA they arrogantly boasted that they were just looking for a 50% plus one vote, so they threw in an Early Out offer, meaning they knew they would be stuck with a workforce where the majority of those who remained voted against the deal that they were stuck with. The company didn't care, now they have to live with a workforce that doesn't either. Here at AA every A&P at negotiations except one (who was beyond retirement age) voted against bringing the deal we have at AA back, the non-A&Ps in the room outnumbered the A&Ps and forced the deal to be put out for ratification. The Union then pulled out all the plugs to get the deal passed. Sure it wouldn't have passed unless some A&Ps voted for it but if only A&Ps had voted then it most certainly would have failed. So before thinking that introducing much lower paid unlicensed workers is better than seeing that work go out look down the road a bit and realize that the cost of keeping that work in house may be lower wages for you in the end. You may keep the work but lose the job and lifestyle you came into this profession to get.
topDawg
Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2010
- Messages
- 2,957
- Reaction score
- 2,298
I do see your point Bob. Sometimes I do forget the fundamental deference between AA and DL. Here if one gets a raise all non-union scale gets a raise. (plus the company sees us as a way to make money. AA doesn't seem really interested in that outside of TAESL)
but I do see where you are going with this. Its not a huge issue for Delta because they aren't going to try to expand the ASM program like AA likely would (to the point over having very few AMTs). The last thing they want to do is add any more fuel to the fire and get union cards getting passed around TOC. (and just from the outside looking in, I have never seen a company completely hell bent on screwing its employees like AA. I honestly think it is worse than Eastern was.)
Anyways. Keep up the good fight Bob. Hope you guys get a real union in place and maybe we can start moving up again.
