Hidden concession TWU gave USAir?

[chellow]

I dont see a big layoff if there is a merger. A reduction perhaps but both carriers have a serious problem that a layoff would just make worse. They both have old workforces, USAIRs average age is 56 and AA is not far behind.Despite our miserable compensation a layoff would actually drive the average cost for maint labor (and the average age) up, not down.

A layoff would eliminate the few 20 and 30 year olds and probably even cut into 40 year old population in short order as the stratas are very thin to start with. There is no pool of mechanics out there for the carriers to tap when the older workers decide to pack it in. They dont pay enough to draw mechanics out of Mobile Alabama MROs to New York or LAX. Look at how hundreds took the streets or downgrades in TX and Tulsa rather than move with the work to places like NY, ORD or BOS, leaving vacancies unfilled across the system. If AA cant get workers they already have to move for them they have even less chance of drawing workers away from other employers.They have done such a good job at making this a crappy job that half the schools that trained A&Ps closed their doors and those in the military are better off staying there than going into the airline industry.

So ironically if there is an overage I see another buyout offer, but a very limited one. They need to keep the younger workers because if the lay them off competitors will pick them up and AA/US will not get them back as older workers leave.

As far as losing the 401K match I'm waiting for an answer on that, but I believe thats NOT the case.

Do you wish to reconsider?

 

[Bob Owens]

Do you wish to reconsider?

No. Did you hear something I didnt?

 

[Topcat187]

We gave up (as did all the APA and APFA) profit sharing from a Company that hasn’t been profitable in a decade for base pay increases worth far more and, to you, that is a bad thing because the TWU also negotiated an industry pay adjustment which will occur in 2015. If the 4.3 percent is paid by April, it will be worth approximately seven thousand dollars in additional pay through September 12, 2015 to every mechanic, and that is without counting the impact on 401k contributions. Assuming AA had its best performance ever and made a billion a year for six straight years, profit sharing would be less than 3,800 dollars total. And we know that is not a realistic scenario because the combined talent of the two worst managements in this industry are not going to produce the best profits in the history of the passenger airline industry.

http://aviationblog....n-in-2014.html/


The below statements are from the above article. I will take profit sharing any day over 4.3% that I was gonna get in 36 months anyway.

Their model projects that AMR will have pro forma net income of $2.35 billion in 2013 and $2.90 billion in 2014.
They estimate that earnings before interest, depreciation, taxes, depreciation, amortization and rents (EBITDAR) will reach $6.0 billion in 2013 and $6.8 billion in 2014. EBITDAR margins would be 14.9 percent in 2013 and 16.1 percent in 2014, ahead of their estimates for Delta Air Lines and United Airlines in those years.
One thing that will help AMR’s bottom line is that the unions negotiated away profit sharing, the elimination of which he estimated added $300 million to $450 million in EBITDAR for AMR

 

[TWU informer]

If this happens, it will be the final nail on the TWU coffin. The TWU are the best organizers AMFA has.


GO AMFA!!!

I suspect we are going to lose the company match, AA and the TWU know it, and asked the Judge to delay any decisions to protect the TWU until AA could hire the attorneys needed to assist the TWU against angry AMT's.

 

[Bob Owens]

I suspect we are going to lose the company match, AA and the TWU know it, and asked the Judge to delay any decisions to protect the TWU until AA could hire the attorneys needed to assist the TWU against angry AMT's.

The fact is they were all hoping that we would not even notice it. There is nothing in the contract about the match and the Prefunding Agreement was not made that accessible. Jim Fudge brought it up, and once that was out of the bag they couldnt get it back in. Burdette was furious, they were hoping to pocket that money just like they did the $70+ million from the Supplimental Medical that they sold as supplimental retiree insurance that you had to buy while you were working then claimed it was a term plan that raised the Lifetime cap from $5 million to $8million.

I hope we are wrong, that we will get the money, but the longer it takes for the Judge to let out his decision the more likely it is that AA will get to take our money to satisfy its obligations to its retirees.

I agree that both the company and TWU are concerned about the backlash and are hoping to annouce the equity stake around the same time in the hopes that the announcement of up to approximately $20k in equity will calm everyone down. Some of our guys are due upwards of $40,000 from the match. We have to make sure that everyone is informed that these are two seperate issues, The Equity stake we are getting in exchange for $2.2 billion in additional concessions beyond what we gave up from 2003 till 2012. The $20k will likely be less than 10% of what we gave up from 2003 to 2018. If we allow the company to use our Prefunding monies to satisfy their obligations it would be the moral equivelent of twenty years from now agreeing to allow the company to take out the matching 401K funds to pay other creditors, including buyouts for their executives. Those matching funds are for us to use to buy retiree medical for ourselves, thats why they are matching.

 

[Bob Owens]

http://aviationblog....n-in-2014.html/


The below statements are from the above article. I will take profit sharing any day over 4.3% that I was gonna get in 36 months anyway.

Their model projects that AMR will have pro forma net income of $2.35 billion in 2013 and $2.90 billion in 2014.
They estimate that earnings before interest, depreciation, taxes, depreciation, amortization and rents (EBITDAR) will reach $6.0 billion in 2013 and $6.8 billion in 2014. EBITDAR margins would be 14.9 percent in 2013 and 16.1 percent in 2014, ahead of their estimates for Delta Air Lines and United Airlines in those years.
One thing that will help AMR’s bottom line is that the unions negotiated away profit sharing, the elimination of which he estimated added $300 million to $450 million in EBITDAR for AMR

If you are a line mechanic you would only be getting 3.5%, not 4.3%. If they added 2 cents to Night shift would you consider that a 100% increase? The 4.3% only applies to the $28.80 base, not the premiums.

 

[amt66]

http://aviationblog....n-in-2014.html/


The below statements are from the above article. I will take profit sharing any day over 4.3% that I was gonna get in 36 months anyway.

Their model projects that AMR will have pro forma net income of $2.35 billion in 2013 and $2.90 billion in 2014.
They estimate that earnings before interest, depreciation, taxes, depreciation, amortization and rents (EBITDAR) will reach $6.0 billion in 2013 and $6.8 billion in 2014. EBITDAR margins would be 14.9 percent in 2013 and 16.1 percent in 2014, ahead of their estimates for Delta Air Lines and United Airlines in those years.
One thing that will help AMR’s bottom line is that the unions negotiated away profit sharing, the elimination of which he estimated added $300 million to $450 million in EBITDAR for AMR

Up until now thus company hasn't made anything close to what they are projecting so I will take the oat increase over the profit sharing. A real company would give us both but since we work for a pos company they choose to take away profit sharing . im stll amazed how this management thinks they can piss all over their employees and expect 100% effort. IMHO I really doubt they will Make anything close to that considering everything they have done to the work force.

 

[Bob Owens]

im stll amazed how this management thinks they can piss all over their employees and expect 100% effort. IMHO I really doubt they will Make anything close to that considering everything they have done to the work force.

Because they have so far. Maybe they arent getting 110% but they are getting what they want. Imagine what they could make if they paid us right!

 

[Docker]

Question for the US folks...do you get shift differential?

Yes we get $.51 for 2nd shift, $.58 for 3rd, and $.61 for Rotating. Also $1.75 license pay for each up to two license, 5 weeks vacation, 10 Holidays, Back to Back Swaps allowed and we do 50% of our heavy maintenance. From our contract that was negotiated in 2008.

 

[paul1]

I dont see a big layoff if there is a merger. A reduction perhaps but both carriers have a serious problem that a layoff would just make worse. They both have old workforces, USAIRs average age is 56 and AA is not far behind.Despite our miserable compensation a layoff would actually drive the average cost for maint labor (and the average age) up, not down.

A layoff would eliminate the few 20 and 30 year olds and probably even cut into 40 year old population in short order as the stratas are very thin to start with. There is no pool of mechanics out there for the carriers to tap when the older workers decide to pack it in. They dont pay enough to draw mechanics out of Mobile Alabama MROs to New York or LAX. Look at how hundreds took the streets or downgrades in TX and Tulsa rather than move with the work to places like NY, ORD or BOS, leaving vacancies unfilled across the system. If AA cant get workers they already have to move for them they have even less chance of drawing workers away from other employers.They have done such a good job at making this a crappy job that half the schools that trained A&Ps closed their doors and those in the military are better off staying there than going into the airline industry.

So ironically if there is an overage I see another buyout offer, but a very limited one. They need to keep the younger workers because if the lay them off competitors will pick them up and AA/US will not get them back as older workers leave.

As far as losing the 401K match I'm waiting for an answer on that, but I believe thats NOT the case.

theres many osm or what ever they are call, and if they cannot get them you know there plenty of guys hanging out in front of home depot that want to work

 

[Bob Owens]

theres many osm or what ever they are call, and if they cannot get them you know there plenty of guys hanging out in front of home depot that want to work

Well if you think that the guys standing outside of Home Depot can step in and do your work then shame on you. Perhaps you are one of the guys that somehow got an A&P but really arent mechanically inclined. Believe it or not the Airlines do try to hire people who have training and skills. They arent having an easy time of it either.

 

[FWAAA]

I can see the argument for requiring that line maintenance be staffed solely by A&P licensed mechanics, so that when the pilots at gate 12 call to have something fixed so they can depart for Tokyo ASAP, whoever is sent knows how to fix whatever the problem might be so that the plane can depart on time.

At the overhaul bases, must everyone be licensed? At hospitals, not everyone is an MD. Lots and lots of less-educated, specialized helpers all tasked with implementing the orders of the doctors. If Aeroman operates with just one A&P equivalent for every 10 or 100 or 500 non-licensed "helpers," then isn't the solution for Tulsa (and the US Airways bases that will soon join AA) to have one A&P licensed mechanic supervise a team of several helpers? I'm not suggesting that the helpers be day laborers picked up that morning at Home Depot, but aren't there some jobs involved with airframe overhaul that don't really demand all the experience and training of the jack-of-all-trades A&P? I realize that AA has for years employed some OSMs (or whatever they're called these days) at the bases, along with some unlicensed mechanics possessing specialized skills (machining, welding, etc). In 2011, the TWU said that at TULE, there were more than 3 licensed mechanics for each unlicensed mechanic.

Is the solution an increase in the number of unlicensed mechanics supervised by those with licenses or will the overhaul bases in Costa Rica, Mexico and El Salvador continue building more and more hangars as they've done the past 10-15 years? Staffed by, of course, a few knowledgable mechanics overseeing hundreds of low-wage, unlicensed helpers?

 

[700UW]

But a non-licensed hospital employee isnt treating you, unlike a unlicensed mechanic.

 

[lineguy43]

Yes we get $.51 for 2nd shift, $.58 for 3rd, and $.61 for Rotating. Also $1.75 license pay for each up to two license, 5 weeks vacation, 10 Holidays, Back to Back Swaps allowed and we do 50% of our heavy maintenance. From our contract that was negotiated in 2008.

Those were the same numbers we had at NWA when we had the Iam except our license pay was $ 1.40..Glad to see they are consistant anyway.

 

[Desert Snake]

I can see the argument for requiring that line maintenance be staffed solely by A&P licensed mechanics, so that when the pilots at gate 12 call to have something fixed so they can depart for Tokyo ASAP, whoever is sent knows how to fix whatever the problem might be so that the plane can depart on time.

At the overhaul bases, must everyone be licensed? At hospitals, not everyone is an MD. Lots and lots of less-educated, specialized helpers all tasked with implementing the orders of the doctors. If Aeroman operates with just one A&P equivalent for every 10 or 100 or 500 non-licensed "helpers," then isn't the solution for Tulsa (and the US Airways bases that will soon join AA) to have one A&P licensed mechanic supervise a team of several helpers? I'm not suggesting that the helpers be day laborers picked up that morning at Home Depot, but aren't there some jobs involved with airframe overhaul that don't really demand all the experience and training of the jack-of-all-trades A&P? I realize that AA has for years employed some OSMs (or whatever they're called these days) at the bases, along with some unlicensed mechanics possessing specialized skills (machining, welding, etc). In 2011, the TWU said that at TULE, there were more than 3 licensed mechanics for each unlicensed mechanic.

Is the solution an increase in the number of unlicensed mechanics supervised by those with licenses or will the overhaul bases in Costa Rica, Mexico and El Salvador continue building more and more hangars as they've done the past 10-15 years? Staffed by, of course, a few knowledgable mechanics overseeing hundreds of low-wage, unlicensed helpers?

Amazing how that works considering an A&P is supposed to be watching the unlicensed person perform the job. How can one person be at 10 or more places at once? Unless of course they all have their repairman's certificate.