AA-TWU-USair MOU

[FWAAA]

You left out the ME Too that we gave away as well, and can you tell us how this would affect the Equity Stake?

The me-too from Horton expired of its own terms once all labor groups agreed on new contracts. Anyone looking for a me-too provision in the MOUs should ask Parker for one.

We gave up $2.2 billion for 4.8% of the Equity of the new AA, now US is going to get equity, doesnt that water down the value of our Equity stake? Will we still be entitled to that 4.8% equity stake in the whole company?

Fortunately, no. The equity claims of the three workgroups are measured against the value of the new AMR, excluding the value of any entities merged into AMR. Example: If AMR emerged on its own, and was valued at $8 billion, then your 4.8% would be worth $384 million. If AMR and US are merged when AMR exits Ch 11, and the combined entity is worth, say, $10 billion, two billion dollars of that belongs to the current LCC stockholders and the AMR creditors won't get a portion of that, so your claim would still be 4,8% of the $8 billion, not 4.8% of the $10 billion.

If that's not satisfactory, then imagine if Apple and AMR merged when AMR exits. You would not be entitled to 4.8% of the combined $500 billion entity. Most of that would still belong to the current Apple stockholders, not the AMR creditors.

$2.2 billion is roughly $110,000 per member. Lets say the new company is worth $10 billion, our stake would only be worth $480,000, or $24 per member, so in exchange of $110,000 per member in concessions we get $24.

You need a new calculator. 4.8% of $10 billion is $480 million, or $24,000 per member (if there are 20k members).

Profit Sharing vs the raise, granted I'll take the bird in the hand but why give up the ME Too? If you are justifying giving up Profit Sharing because you feel the new company will not be profitable then why would you agree to concessions? If they are not profitable you do know what that means dont you? Another BK and a demand for more concessions. We are already dead last, by a wide margin, how much further are you willing to go?

Agree about giving up all profit sharing. If the company isn't profitable, another Ch 11 awaits. In a couple of weeks, DL will hand out $372 million in profit sharing, which WT said would be more than 6% of 2012 W-2 wages, on average.

AA did claim in court that they would be making nearly $3 billion a year in profits after the restructuring, wildly optimistsic, but they were using that projection to justify the cuts, claiming that we would get back nearly everything we were giving up due to profit sharing. If the new company still wont be profitable then wouldnt it have made more sense to maximize pay and benefits until they inevitanly fail instead of throwing more good money after bad?

No, AA did not claim it would make $3 billion in profits (for profit-sharing purposes). AA did claim that its target EBITDAR was $3 billion. There is a huge difference between an EBITDAR of $3 billion and $3 billion of pre-tax net profits on which profit-sharing is based. Delta just reported net profit of $1.6 billion and its profit-sharing is based (as AA's is) on pre-tax profits before profit-sharing and before the periodic performance bonuses (similar to the AIM awards) and before special items (those non-cash writeoffs that set you off). With DL's 15% profit-sharing formula, that results in $372 million in profit-sharing for 2012 which will be paid in two weeks. Third year in a row with big profit-sharing at DL. 2010-12 profit-sharing totals $949 million in addtion to the periodic performance bonuses.

And don't the DL mechanics make more than you? Plus they get more than 6% of their W-2 wages in profit-sharing checks?

If you're going to keep working for a bankrupt company and give concessions, it's beyond stupid to give away the 15% profit-sharing that Horton offered in the Term Sheets. Good negotiators would have raised that in the final agreements to something higher, perhaps 20%. But your union's leaders include a guy who lies about college degrees (doesn't Little have a fake diploma mill degree?) so I can see where the stupidity is.

You guys need to replace the TWU before the ink dries on the merger so that AMFA could negotiate real profit-sharing with Parker, like 20% of first-dollar profits.

 

[bigjets]

I’m not a mathematician but the so called 5% profit sharing plan the TWU gave up in exchange for the base pay increase would have been worth an approximate onetime $625 bonus payment if AA had made I billion dollars in 2013. AA hasn’t made a billion dollars too often and hasn’t made a profit since 2000. For AMTs the 4.3 percent is worth 1.20 an hour or over $2500 annually. The 4.3% is worth close to 10,000 dollars for the four years before we can open the contract. This doesn’t include the value of it being compounded into the scheduled percentage pay increases and overtime rates. Profit sharing is worth, assuming record profits, $2400 for the four years before we can open the contract. All of the AA unions gave up profit sharing and the trade off the TWU made is a no brainer so far as I’m concerned. It takes a real optimist to believe that the combined talent of AA and US Airways management is going to produce a profit, much less record profits year over year. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the AA unions has put the transition deals they made with USAirways up for vote.


BTW, in case you missed this article:

IBT Gives ABF Concessions in the West

November 28, 2012: On the eve of bargaining with ABF, the International Union has given the company a 65¢ per hour concession in the 13 western states. Members were not consulted, and most are still unaware of the giveback.

The concession was quietly implemented on August 1, by prior arrangement between ABF and the Hoffa administration. On that date, ABF was required by the contract to increase pension and health and welfare payments by $1 per hour. In the west, the allocation was 35¢ to H&W and 65¢ to pension, but the Western Conference of Teamsters Pension Fund has not received any of the 65¢.
Instead, the money has been put into an escrow account, and the matter will be settled in the upcoming bargaining. It seems likely that the money will be given back to the company.

On November 29, Teamster officers and agents from all freight locals will meet in Kansas City to hear the IBT's proposed bargaining proposals and plans.

Meanwhile, management is busy softening up Teamster members. They mailed a DVD to all ABF Teamsters, making their case for concessions.

They are also making the case to Teamster officers. For example, in early November ABF Freight CEO Roy Slagle was given the floor to address Teamster officers from across the west to present a slide show on ABF's case for big concessions, including on pensions, wages, and health coverage. Slagle cited the YRC concessions and the growth of nonunion carriers.

With the company taking an aggressive posture on concessions, and the IBT already giving them away in advance of bargaining, it will be up to rank and file Teamsters to draw a line to protect Teamster standards and benefits.

I think we all understand that an actual raise is better then a profit sharing plan, but the fact of the matter is the lack of ALL the info to come from the TWU to it's members. Maybe if the TWU spent more time representing ALL the AA mechs instead on concentrating on the OSM's maybe they wouldn't have to worry so much about the IBT or AMFA. Using BK as an excuse that we're all emotional right now doesn't fly as the FA's still have a good contract compared to UAL, DAL or USair, and the APA negotiated a contract that 74% of the pilots approved. The big difference IMHO is the their unions fought for the members, where the TWU fought with AA to scare the members.

Who thinks that AA kept TUL open because of their big hearts? If AA could have taken our fleet someplace else for OH for a cheaper price then they would have, (they have a responsibility to their share holders, not to their employees). Look how many class 2's have been closed through out the years.

 

[Bob Owens]

Jim Little was at our local saying that our 4.8 equity would range anywhere from $20,000 to $48,000, depending on the merger. Don't really know where he came up with these numbers, but those were the ones he threw out.

$48,000 each member? Or $48,000 total distributed to 20,000 members? Either my decimal points are off or his are, or my estimates of what AA will be worth are overly pessimistic and his are extremely optimistic.

 

[AANOTOK]

$20,000 to $48,000 per employee, Bob. So say's Jimmy.

 

[Bob Owens]

You need a new calculator. 4.8% of $10 billion is $480 million, or $24,000 per member (if there are 20k members).

No, AA did not claim it would make $3 billion in profits (for profit-sharing purposes). AA did claim that its target EBITDAR was $3 billion. There is a huge difference between an EBITDAR of $3 billion and $3 billion of pre-tax net profits on which profit-sharing is based. ).

And don't the DL mechanics make more than you? Plus they get more than 6% of their W-2 wages in profit-sharing checks?

I have to assume that the lawyer speaks for AA. He made the claim during opening arguements of how much would be in the profit sharing that would be distributed to the workers.

If Delta is making profits like that while paying their workers what they are paying one can only imagine what AA may be posting, that is if its planes make it off the gate.

 

[Bob Owens]

$20,000 to $48,000 per employee, Bob. So say's Jimmy.

Ok, it appears my digit limited calculator has caused me to err. I stand corrected. So we paid roughly $110,000 each for anywhere from $20,000 to $48,000 worth of equity.

 

[swamt]

I’m not a mathematician but the so called 5% profit sharing plan the TWU gave up in exchange for the base pay increase would have been worth an approximate onetime $625 bonus payment if AA had made I billion dollars in 2013. AA hasn’t made a billion dollars too often and hasn’t made a profit since 2000. For AMTs the 4.3 percent is worth 1.20 an hour or over $2500 annually. The 4.3% is worth close to 10,000 dollars for the four years before we can open the contract. This doesn’t include the value of it being compounded into the scheduled percentage pay increases and overtime rates. Profit sharing is worth, assuming record profits, $2400 for the four years before we can open the contract. All of the AA unions gave up profit sharing and the trade off the TWU made is a no brainer so far as I’m concerned. It takes a real optimist to believe that the combined talent of AA and US Airways management is going to produce a profit, much less record profits year over year. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the AA unions has put the transition deals they made with USAirways up for vote.


BTW, in case you missed this article:

IBT Gives ABF Concessions in the West

November 28, 2012: On the eve of bargaining with ABF, the International Union has given the company a 65¢ per hour concession in the 13 western states. Members were not consulted, and most are still unaware of the giveback.

The concession was quietly implemented on August 1, by prior arrangement between ABF and the Hoffa administration. On that date, ABF was required by the contract to increase pension and health and welfare payments by $1 per hour. In the west, the allocation was 35¢ to H&W and 65¢ to pension, but the Western Conference of Teamsters Pension Fund has not received any of the 65¢.
Instead, the money has been put into an escrow account, and the matter will be settled in the upcoming bargaining. It seems likely that the money will be given back to the company.

On November 29, Teamster officers and agents from all freight locals will meet in Kansas City to hear the IBT's proposed bargaining proposals and plans.

Meanwhile, management is busy softening up Teamster members. They mailed a DVD to all ABF Teamsters, making their case for concessions.

They are also making the case to Teamster officers. For example, in early November ABF Freight CEO Roy Slagle was given the floor to address Teamster officers from across the west to present a slide show on ABF's case for big concessions, including on pensions, wages, and health coverage. Slagle cited the YRC concessions and the growth of nonunion carriers.

With the company taking an aggressive posture on concessions, and the IBT already giving them away in advance of bargaining, it will be up to rank and file Teamsters to draw a line to protect Teamster standards and benefits.

I have no idea if this is a reliable source, however, the above story is another one of those "behind closed doors deals" that the teamsters are famous for. You AA'ers that are signing teamster cards can still see how the teamsters work. They will stick it in your back then send a DVD to your home to try and explain the conccessionss they just "secretly caved to" for the company. Not only was it conccessions it was also at the same date the union employees were suppose to recieve "increases" to certain areas of the contract. Leave it to the teamsters to be their own demise...

 

[1AA]

YUP the ME TOO is worthless. Pilots currently get 14% contribution in their 401K with NO MATCH from the employee. They will get 16% if this merger goes through. Yet we get a poultry 5.5% and have to match it. Yup I love the ME TOO clauses the union negotiates and them throws them out after cutting another deal without our input.

 

[swamt]

YUP the ME TOO is worthless. Pilots currently get 14% contribution in their 401K with NO MATCH from the employee. They will get 16% if this merger goes through. Yet we get a poultry 5.5% and have to match it. Yup I love the ME TOO clauses the union negotiates and them throws them out after cutting another deal without our input.

I am wondering if the TWU is giving everything to the company before they are removed from the property. They are doing the same thing the teamsters do, these "behind closed door deals" won't stop unless you guys get AMFA in.

 

[bigjets]

YUP the ME TOO is worthless. Pilots currently get 14% contribution in their 401K with NO MATCH from the employee. They will get 16% if this merger goes through. Yet we get a poultry 5.5% and have to match it. Yup I love the ME TOO clauses the union negotiates and them throws them out after cutting another deal without our input.

This "Me Too" clause reminds me of the 1995 contact, where the [background=yellow]TWU[/background] kept saying don't worry about anything we got a me too clause the pilots get it we get. Then when the pilots got it we didn't get it. It turned out that the "Me Too" clause was only for insurance and only if certain criteria was met. Info not passed along to us during the voting process.

Those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

This "Me Too" clause reminds me of the 1995 contact, where the [background=yellow]TWU[/background] kept saying don't worry about anything we got a me too clause the pilots get it we get. Then when the pilots got it we didn't get it. It turned out that the "Me Too" clause was only for insurance and only if certain criteria was met. Info not passed along to us during the voting process.

Those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.

The "Me Too" was never an issue for most of us. The TWU did the usual and added a 5 and 5 to get the A scalers to vote for it. It barely passed and later it was learned that if the A scalers who voted for it to get the 5 and 5, that later on didn't take it, had voted no it would not have passed. It was a terrible contract. It should have never been passed, "Me Too" or not.

 

[Bob Owens]

The "Me Too" was never an issue for most of us. The TWU did the usual and added a 5 and 5 to get the A scalers to vote for it. It barely passed and later it was learned that if the A scalers who voted for it to get the 5 and 5, that later on didn't take it, had voted no it would not have passed. It was a terrible contract. It should have never been passed, "Me Too" or not.

The 5 and 5 that was sold as a 5 and 5 but wasnt IIRC.

Bigjets is right though, the union did try and sell the six year deal based on the fact that it had a ME Too clause, they said the pilots would never settle for anything that bad and we could ride on their coat tails. Of course that didnt happen.

1995 also gave us SRPs, that was the start of what would eventually lead to most of the industry getting out of the OH business. AA was able to blend in MRO costs with very low wage workers replacing high wage workers. They did this during a period of growth. When competitors hit BK nearly a decade later there was no way they could introduce a competitive match, their workforces were shrinking, so there was no way to introduce a low wage program like we had given AA, and with the concessions we had given outside of BK in 2003 they were really screwed, they had no choice but to outsource, so they did, as much as they could, just to try and level the field with AA. Once again we led the industry in the destruction of our profession. We gave them these huge concessions rolling into the greatest economic expansion our country ever saw, record profits etc, it took the after affects of 9-11 to get our peers to start giving similar concessions and they still kept their holidays, vacation, sick time, and doubletime, even our non-union peers kept stuff that we lost.

 

[comatose]

Page 4 Number 7,8,9 states the "me too". Can't find the 401k.

http://twulocal513.o...derstanding.pdf

US Airways M&R Sheet

More concessions given by the TWU.
Gotta love how we have had the 401k match for a hole month and the TWU
can negotiate half of it away. Wake up TULSA.

Bye bye profit sharing. What else can they take away?

And yes I spelled the word hole correctly because we are wholely holes.

Where are all the supportive TWU clowns...Overspeed, CIO, High speed steel?

Please put your spin on this fecal sandwich.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

US Airways M&R Sheet

More concessions given by the TWU.
Gotta love how we have had the 401k match for a hole month and the TWU
can negotiate half of it away. Wake up TULSA.

Bye bye profit sharing. What else can they take away?

And yes I spelled the word hole correctly because we are wholely holes.

I can't say that I am surprised. but WOW!!! 3% match?

 

[Rogallo]

US Airways M&R Sheet

More concessions given by the TWU.
Gotta love how we have had the 401k match for a hole month and the TWU
can negotiate half of it away. Wake up TULSA.

brain–dead ˈbreɪnˌdɛd/ adjective
1 medical : showing no sign of activity in the brain : having no brain function
2 informal : very stupid
▪ You would have to be brain-dead not to see the problem. : not able to function normally