Helicopter Engineers & Pilot Association

[donnybrook]

This is in response to Bubbleboy, but not directed "at" him! I think some people(myself incl) genuinely don't see the "HOW" in an Association changing the industry.

As an example, a while ago I posted a question, on this thread, wrt how the Association would be able to help low timers. Though there were a number of well intentioned attempts to answer, and some good ideas, there was nothing really tangible presented as to how an Association could implement the changes it desires to make ( ie. What power does it have? Or where does it's power come from?). Please also understand that I am not trying to put the onus on BlackMac to sell this idea, as he has a lot on his plate already. I think this would be a great idea, if I understood the basis of an Association's power to convince.

I don't think I am alone in this confusion!

By the way...I don't think you could justifiably exclude a military helicopter pilot if he/she is paying the same dues as everyone else. If you wish to do that you'd better throw the word "civilian" into the already tired topic of the Association's name...

 

[Elvis]

That was My point with the Let,s make a deal reference.

:elvis: :elvis:

 

[bubbleboy]

donnybrook: No worries. Power comes with KNOWLEDGE and INFORMATION! The primary benefit in the formation of an association comes with having names, addresses, phone numbers, e-mail, etc, etc. This will allow the timely two-way dissemination of information. Rather than gathering facts from rumours and coffee pot meetings, how about receiving regular updates from 500+ people who share the same interests. I would rather base my opinions on that information.

Will it have an effect on the way the industry treats the whole insurance vs. low-time issue? Who knows. Lets find out. Expectedly, people are cautious - this is both good and bad. Bad in that the status-quo does not change sitting on the fence. Good in that our foundation is anchored in being safe and not rushing into something. Regardless, we have an opportunity here to band together a very large and important segment of our industry, and we need to take advantage of that.

Some are caught up in the notion that the association will magically have all the answers from the beginning. It's too funny, we go from 50 or so years of flying by the seat of our pants, and over-night the association will provide all the solutions! Maybe it's going to take another 50 years to get it right, but I do not think it will happen without the efforts of an association.

I also look forward to the day when some face to face meetings can happen, without the use of these little smiley faces. Too many good ideas and articulate people are mis-interpreted because of bad keyboard skills. I read people getting defensive all the time. A good meeting will probably get a few things cleared up, or maybe bloody some knuckles. Everybody loves a good donnybrook!

 

[swashplate]

I'm with Bubbleboy - Go Don Go.

Also agree that it's unrealistic to think an Association can instantly change things. No the power comes from us just unifying in a way that makes us look "professional." We should expect that it will take a long time before the Association has voice that is respected enough to influence those writing the cheques or setting the working conditions.

 

[Heli Ops]

I know the association might be against having operators as members but this could also benefit new pilots. For example operators could have their own seperate membership catergory but not be able to be on the Assn Board etc. This could also apply to manufacturers and overhaul shops etc. Charge them more than the normal membership because they will realise the fact that if the Assn gets good momentum going, then they need to be on their good side.

And one thing they could do is, and this is all hypothetical, is maybe donate say a sling load rating, or a mountain flying rating etc. This could be sort of like a scholarship that the assn extends to a worthy individual. Maybe to encourage a student that has promise etc.

You could also get some members to chip into something like that, maybe as an incentive for the students to join. I know from my aspect, being a trade magazine for the industry I would be willing to try and help support something like that.

You could also find that the Assn runs seminars on such subjects as CRM, Public Relations skills, How To Write A Resume etc etc.

Anyway these are just food for thought.

Heli Ops

 

[Blackbeard]

Enough Already.

First of all, Blackmac has taken on a huge responsibility in trying to get this association up and running. To do this he has already had to make some decisiions about who is to be represented - I personally think there are enough differences between the two occupations (Pilot and Engineer) that we could use two seperate organisations. But that is just my opinion, and I am happy to go along with what Blackmac has decided.
As far as the name of the Association goes, Blackmac has made a decision. End of Story.
When this organisation is operating and you are all paid up meembers you can opt to change the name, and many other things, if you so wish.

I am also sickened to read the constant me, me, me, message in many of the posts regarding this association.
Perhaps we would do well to remember JFK's famous line

Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

Perhaps if a few more of you took this to heart you would what those who are trying to get this association are doing. There will be many decisions to be made in the days, weeks and years to come, and they can only be made by those who support this organisation through their membership.

I am also disheartened to see the amount of effort some people will go to put down other members of their own fraternity " blacklist companies based on experiences of generaly incompetent employees?" (my italics). I guess this comes with the agressive 'me' attitude that many helicopter industry people display.

I would further add that the Association will be in no position to 'blacklist' certain companies. It may, however, be in a position to assist employees of some companies when there is a need.

Along these lines, I must also add that I am not in favour of allowing membership of the Association by operators. They have their own organisation that has done nothing to further to interests of crews in this industry.

To those naysayers I can tell you that without an association you will never be recognised by Labour Canada as a professionals. Therefore, you cannot expect to have input or influence over Canadian Governement regulators.
For example:
When the BC fires where raging this summer how many pilots went to TC and requested and extension of their Flight and Duty Times? Probably none of you as you were all too busy working to worry about dealing with TC, who are not interested in hearing from the individual. How many operators approached TC, on behalf of their pilots, so they could maximise their earning potential?

Finally, as I have raved enough, there are a number of people who post here who, it is patently obvious, are totally against any form of association. Quit trying to sabotage a genuine attempt to improve this industry. :down: You are welcome to you opinion but the negative comments are not helping Blacmac in his efforts to do something for this industry from which he stands to gain nothing except, perhaps, the dubious satisfaction of knowing that he has done something worthwhile.

Blackmac, I am with you all the way, and my check is in the mail to you.

Cheers...

 

[gannet]

Well put Blackbeard,

Some interesting suggestions, too. No one can tell where this could go for sure, but it seems to have promise. The present alternative is to go nowhere. Is anyone arguing to maintain the status quo?

 

[MagSeal]

Blackmacs a big boy, he can handle criticism. if he can't, he's taking the wrong leadership role.
As for the "me"...this is all about the individual to decide, so therefore, it's about "me" and "me" joining an association. if the association does nothing for "me", why join?
You want to join, go ahead. You want to send in money with any a scant hint of what might happen, go ahead. When you find your moneys done nothing but set up a nice office, your loss. All I want to know is if there is a plan in place yet, and when I'm basically slapped across the face, ("For the information of all Smart Ass’s on this site..." quote from Blackmac) the leadership shows signs of cracking and loss of credibility.
I think I'll wait for a plan before I make my next move. Blackmac has said he needs 500 people at $200 a crack before he can get it going. Thats $100000. That'd sure top up the retirment fund in a hurry.
I don't trust him, Others I work with, who know him, also don't trust him. he's done nothing but slander those who ask questions that he can't answer. Let him set up his legacy, I'm not stopping him, he's doing fine stopping it all by himself.

 

[RDM]

Let’s try to keep it professional people.

 

[bubbleboy]

Magseal: I'm not quite sure how to respond to your statements, but something should be said.

I have never met Blackmac, or have any knowledge of his history in this industry. What is important to me is that he was willing to come forward and stick his neck out on my behalf to at least TRY and do something different for a change. You do yourself and this discussion no service by posting such a damaging statement. I believe this thread was started for those who want to constructively work towards establishing an Association. As is your right, perhaps you should start a different topic in which you and any other armchair quarterbacks can complain about the lack of (insert complaint here).

I would urge you to go to www.strategis.ic.gc.ca/corporations. Go to forms and then the not-for-profit section. This will give you an indication of the workload that Don has taken on to establish an Association. It will also point out that original 3 directors are self appointed, and that actual directors will be voted in by the voting Association members once the Association has been established. Don gets my vote for having the balls to get up off his arse and try to make this a reality, and for making himself a target for snipers such as yourself. As a member you would have the right to promote whomever you choose to direct the Association.

Magseal you also fail to understand the basic premise of an Association in that it's effectiveness will come from everybody becoming a member. The Association will do nothing for you unless you do something for the Association.

 

[Charles W.]

I do not like the way this discussion is going.

I also was not going to become involved in the arguments...

However I am not one to ignore what could be something that could benefit the industry that I have lived my whole life in.

I am semi retired, I am also to old to get a job in the helicopter field even if I wanted or needed one..how many operators would hire someone 68 years old?

But let me tell you guys something...

If you #### and whine about how unfair the industry is and don't have the fu..ing brains to get along with each other even in something as beneficial as an assotiation you deserve what you get.

I wouldn't know Blackmac if I tripped over hin on the street, if he is a dishonest self serving crook so be it....but I approve of what he has started so I am sending him the two hundred dollars.

Anyone who lives in such an insulated world that they wont gamble two hundred bucks to benefit everyone need not join.

There that is my thoughts.

Chuck Ellsworth

 

[MagSeal]

well chucky, I wish I had two spare bills sitting around that i could throw at him, I don't right now, but thats none of your concern. Should anyone be able to fairly answer any questions i had, or will have, feel free to send me a couple hundred....
I stand by my reluctance to join until it's in full swing and things are set up. I'm not a gambler, never will be.
and just for the record, I have not once felt that blackmac shouldn't take on this venture. He's made the decision to do it, good for him. Somebody had to pull the fence post from their a$$ and get it moving.
Am I being targeted because alot of people do not know how to garner support from others who are not quite ready to make a blind leap of faith? Continual slamming of doors in the faces of guys like me with questions is not a way to find further support for your cause.

 

[Charles W.]

Nothing personal magseal.

We do not know each other either so it can't be personal.

I also am not exceptionally wealthy, however in this instance I will make it a priority to set aside the money,as I have stated I am not personally in need of a job, however how well I remember how tough it can be.

I have made a decision several years ago to take on a couple of morally corrupt TC managers ( Note: that is my own personal opinion of the individuals so lets just say allegedly corrupt managers. ) with the hope that in some small way I can make it less likely someone else may not have to put up with their crap.

The decision cost me almost all the money I had saved for my retirement, but it had to be done in my own opinion.

So two hundred to maybe help make the industry better is a no brainer for me.

I think all this will turn out for the good of all of us.

Chuck

 

[Skids Up]

Well, as we watch the posts concerning the startup of an association, one might get the impression that it will be a tough road. Nobody wants to start, and then nobody wants to agree with those who do.

Part of the draw to this forum are the posts by members and the chance to agree or disagree, sometimes quite heatedly.

I get the impression that many know who most of the main players are, which allows them to snip back and forth in kind of a "closed forum".

Now we get some making statements about individuals that probably come from personal experiences, but this foum may not be the best place to share them.

Being realtively new to the forum I am mostly a "watcher", (with 30 years in the industry as a pilot/engineer) but I am a supporter of the association idea. But I have a few questions - because I don't know very many of the forum members....

Other than a mention of the "500 members X $200 dollars", where are the names and address of those who will be involved in the management of the association. People talk about sending money, but I can't remeber seeing a name and address to send it to.

If we're asking for money, where is the form outlining the membership requirements? (Then we would have some sort of tracking for those worried about their funds...)

Where are the 500 members that are needed? Are they on this forum, (don't think so, unless there is a lot of lokers) or is that a number taken from the list of helicopter pilots in Canada?

I do believe that to get this going, the next step needs to be taken. Some (all?) will have to come out from behind their "nicknames" so that we can work together as a group of professional pilot and engineers. It will be tough to go up against TC with a presentation from "Skids Up" "407 Driver" "Downwash" "etc" "etc" and look professional!

So lets get it together and try and do something. That means working together... If your're not interested in being a part of it, that will be reflected in the poll on this forum "For & Against (something like that anyway.)

 

[Elvis]

It still breaks down to spending $200.00 for what's behind curtain # 3 and praying it's not the booby prize.

:elvis: :elvis: