Brother, as hard as it was did you land in a better spot? Figure what you would have earned to date vs accepting the companys concessions from the beginning. I suspect that as hard as it was when you add it all up you are better off. Lets face it the job was not going to stay the same either way. We screwed up back in 2003. Should have let AA go BK back then, now it will cost even more because we are starting from a lower spot. To those who are 45 and under my best advice is to get out. Either go to a place that will pay or find another profession. I doubt this place will take me to retirement.
Future Tulsa 514 President Dan Mitchell Removed From Office
- Thread starter Man of the People
- Start date
Brother, as hard as it was did you land in a better spot? Figure what you would have earned to date vs accepting the companys concessions from the beginning. I suspect that as hard as it was when you add it all up you are better off. Lets face it the job was not going to stay the same either way. We screwed up back in 2003. Should have let AA go BK back then, now it will cost even more because we are starting from a lower spot. To those who are 45 and under my best advice is to get out. Either go to a place that will pay or find another profession. I doubt this place will take me to retirement.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
Thanks Ken. You defended the TWU Constitution perfectly. It is a different system just like AMFA's is and like you say there is no "miracle". AMFA is not going to fix anything and every union has adapted differently. AMFA has chosen to let go of 90% of its members so that the remaining 10% will get top pay...except at AS where they are still behind WN even though they should be higher in pay than WN. Good job AMFA writing in a no strike, interest based arbitration clause. AMFA, all bark and no bite. Wouldn't even strike or do a job action at WN when management decided to outsource more work to El Salvador for the first time ever. Why not defend the craft and keep those jobs in house? Guess that would be tough, much easier to roll over and take another contract extension on top of the previous one which built on all the great work of the IBT. You know the IBT, the union that got WN and UPS top AMT pay. Not AMFA.
Stop being so fickle. You want AMFA, then separate locals, then AMFA, then AMP, then you became an officer, then you quit and ran away, and now you want AMFA. Ken, nice flip flopping and waffling. You talk about everything yet stand for nothing.
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
And your views on the B-Scale, SRP and OSM form of unionism?
Is it okay to have sub MRO wages as long as the number of members holds steady?
Keeping the number of union members up is very important, because even through these turbulent times the labor administration has aided airline so much.
We must be the 1% he despises, because he sure hasn't help us.
Over speed: would you support a move to separate the M&R from the rest of the TWU?
Instead 100% of us lost our careers.
We had a career that paid us fairly, we used to make as much as UPS and more than WN, For many of us it took years to get here. We made it to the majors.
The Job we have now pays us around $17/hr less than UPS.
Oh and since then UPS and WN have added heads, we lost around 5000. Back then nobody made up stories how the IBT traded heads for pay. UPS and WN didnt make gains or share in their employers success, they simply kept pace with inflation.
We used to have a job that provided us 10 paid Holidays, if we worked we got paid time and a half on top of the pay for the day.
The job we have now only recognizes five paid Holidays, but if they decide they need us to work they only pay us an extra 4 hours for eight hours of work. In effect we work for half the pay, guess we could say its a Holiday for the company instead of the workers.
We used to get Vacation on par wiith the rest of the industry, now over a 30 year career we would get around 30 less weeks of vacation.
We always lagged the industry as far as sick time but we got $25/day for the ones we didnt use, now we get less than half of what most get and lose half pay for the first two we call in sick.
We used to have a job that provided affordable Health Insurance, the job we have now charges us 600% more and has higher deductables and copays.
And it doesnt stop there, and apparently the list of concessions continues to grow.
We used to have a career and earned enough to take care of our families, depending on where you lived you could live pretty well. We're still employed by the same company, still do the same work, still have the same responsibilites and make the same sacrifices but we sure as hell dont have the same job we had 10 years ago. Our hourly pay is still less than it was back then even though everything else has gone up. Among our peers who also lost their careers we are DEAD LAST. Dead last in wages, in Vacation, in Holidays, in sick time, in OT rules and soon to be dead last as far as our Pension and Retiree Medical.
We didnt save anything, we helped destroy what was once a profession and provide greedy companies cheap labor.
Enough with the TWU vs AMFA debate and the ridiculous claims about saving jobs. There are several other threads for that, try keeping this one about Dan, a good Union man who made a lot of sacrifices for the people he represents, who was pushed out of office by people who run off thousands of copies of letters attacking people who arent even in their local then dont even have the nads to own it. Dan is a man of courage and conviction and this BS could happen in any local in any union when the members dont stand up for the guys who stand up for them.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
Pure BS and no substance as usual.
A 100% did not lose their careers. Bob, UPS and WN outsource more work than AA ever has. Is that what your goal is? To outsource 90% of the work so you can say that you get paid the best? That's pathetic and selfish. We can all get damn good wages and benefits, in fact we did in the July 2010 TA. Where is that money that was on the table? BK was just a threat right? Liar.
And the thousands that work in overhaul and the line that would not be working under the WN and UPS CBAs make $33/hour more. And your point is that you want thousands out of work so you can have a fatter wallet. Tell the truth Bob, that's always been your goal. Instead it backfired on you, now we are all about to get shafted.
WN now has about 2.75 AMTs per aircraft and yes they added employees. They went from 450 aircraft to now over 625 and added about 300 new AMTs. WOW! That's huge. AA went from over 820 aircraft and are now around 600. And cut 5,000 and none to outsourcing. UPS is not much better than WN and has not added many jobs. Again you lie and distort the truth. AA downsized while UPS and WN grew. Growth adds jobs and shrinkage cuts jobs. Keep lying Bob.
Didn't like giving up holidays either. Guess what, we could have kept the holidays and cut more jobs in 2003. It was a choice. We have over 10,000 to get 5 paid holidays and WN has 1,500 getting 10 paid holidays. Which airline has a higher total cost? AA buddy. Telling only half the story is another way you lie Bob.
Again 10,000 getting 5 weeks costs more than 1,500 getting 5 weeks. Did you pass math in school?
Again 10,000 getting full pay sick time versus 1,500 getting full pay sick time...
And other airlines and jobs pay more than we do even under the proposed 3/22 term sheet.
WN has 4.5 maintenance and related per aircraft as of 12/31/11 (3,135 M&R divided by 698 airplanes) and during 2011, WN added 671 maintenance and related (many of whom came with Airtran). 2.75 per aircraft? The actual number is 4.5. Before you insult Owens' math, you should double check your numbers.
After the acquisition of TWA's assets, AA flew about 900 mainline planes. The reduction of about 5,000 M&R employees (not quite one-third of the M&R employees) was fewer than would be expected given the one-third reduction in AA's mainline fleet in the past 11 years following early 2001.
enough already
Veteran
- Jan 8, 2003
- 659
- 249
What was this thread about?
Ok O speed then if the IBt got them top pay why did SW throw them out? .. As far as UPS well 2 miserable unions seem to get good pay there TWu for dispatch and IBt for MX but they do not do well anywhere else. Seems to me UPS just pays well regardless of union or no union much like FX does without a union.
Yes Bob and oh I might add I just got another bump to 49.25 an hr and have only been there 6 yrs. So as much as it sucked to go though that and start over I am very happy to be where I am. Also yes you should have let AA go bankrupt in 2003 as we should have let NW go bankrupt in 1993.
Overspeed
Veteran
- Jun 27, 2011
- 3,245
- 1,065
3,135 includes AMTs, Cleaners, Management, Support, Admin, and Engineering or all M&R employees. Ask your AMFA/WN people and they will tell you that approximately 1,800 people are on the AMT seniority list. Nice try of twisting and distorting facts though. Bravo.
AA had approximately 15 to 1 ratio of AMTs to aircraft in the mid 90s. During the AA/TWA fleet merge there were redundancies and the synergies (Wall Street word) enabled more staff to be cut as a result of downsizing. In other words, vacant dock slots at AA in TUL were filled and lines could be cut in MCI through consolidation. The reductions across both organizations were expected due to staff and facility overlap. Again, nice spin.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,731
And TWU numbers include cleaners, parts washers, and 25% osm making a wage that qualifies for food stamps and government entitlements. And now you can put a 50% plus outsource of work on top of that and watch the TWU headcount numbers get decimated over the next 5 years on top of what is going to be cut in the next 90 days.
When this same thing was happening at Northwest and United, it was all AMFA's fault. Now you twist and spin to make it anyone or anybody's fault other than the TWU. The old mighty TWU concessions for jobs has now run out of steam and none of us can afford your trash contracts any longer. We all just hope AA doesn't hire because we cannot afford what you would give away to make that happen.
OP
Man of the People
Advanced
- Jul 14, 2004
- 160
- 11
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #73
Is Dan Mitchell's Kangaroo Court hearing today?
You are partially correct, and I stand corrected. Please accept my apologies.
The 3,135 number includes all maintenance and related, including facilities, stock clerks, and aircraft cleaners, but I do not believe it includes management or administrative support personnel. AMFA says that WN employs 1,900 AMTs, not 1,800, and that does not include the 400+ IBT-represented Airtran mechanics.
http://www.amfanational.org/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_page.cfm&page=Southwest20Airlines
2,300 divided by 698 planes equals 3.3 AMTs per plane, not 2.75 as you earlier posted.
I don't know what your beef is with me on the reduction in AA M&R; I'm in agreement with you. The name on the union had nothing to do with (nor could any union have prevented) the reductions in AA's AMTs in the past 11 years. The fleet is one-third smaller than it was at the 2001 peak of 900 mainline planes and the number of AMTs is approximately 1/3 smaller as well.
I understand the negotiations with the Mediator/Judge ended with no progress so I thought its time for me to add my views.
There are several things that are very apparent to me. It’s obvious some believe AMFA is the only answer to achieving the highest wages, benefits, and security, no matter the carrier or state of the industry. However, there are those who don’t believe that and I’m one of them. When you factor in their present and past attitude toward sacrificing overhaul work in order to benefit their Line membership, I believe it would have an inevitable and predictable negative effect on the future of our overhaul workforce.
Example: “Southwest Airlines, the nation's leading discount carrier flying only domestic routes, has begun heavy maintenance of some of its Boeing 737 fleet in El Salvador, company executives said Thursday. Under agreements with its Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), Southwest on Wednesday flew its first 737 to Aeroman, an El Salvador-based maintenance, repair and overhaul facility”.
Most recent AMFA agreement and Southwest Airlines is not in Bankruptcy.
While the pro-AMFA supporters keep claiming our negotiations are tainted by the TWU’s efforts to save overhaul jobs whatever the cost, don’t be mislead as to their underlying motive. It’s been AMFA’s bargaining chip in past and recent negotiations, and they would like to see it on this property.
What they won’t admit is that without exception, the membership of every single union that worked through a bankruptcy has had to pay a high price. It didn’t matter who represented the people, whether it was the IAM, IBT, TWU or AMFA. Pilot and Flight Attendant unions also shared the pain. If there‘s any evidence to the contrary I’ve never seen it.
We’ve also reached the point that to simply shrug off the bankruptcy process as some temporary distraction is not being honest with the members or ourselves. Ironically, we still have individuals who seem to believe that all we have to do is say NO, and our future is secure. Or in the alternative, just hold on, and following a contract revocation should that happen, the negotiating environment will somehow miraculously change. It hasn’t happened yet, but If you believe in fairy tales that’s a good place to start. We also know that outsourcing remains a primary target for cost cutting in the industry. To think otherwise is to ignore reality. How we accomplish that while concurrently protecting the overhaul personnel to the extent possible will determine how successful these negotiations really are.
We are of necessity relying on the members of the Negotiating Committee who have far more information and insight into the state of the carrier than we do. We expect them to act responsibly and in the best interests of our entire system membership, not just the chosen few. Since the majority of our members have followed their advice, the decisions they make will either produce the results they keep implying await us, or jeopardize our careers and family’s future.
These are difficult times and we don’t need gamblers rolling the dice when the stakes are this high, nor do we need the distraction of the whiners in our ranks. The Constitution and Convention are the appropriate vehicles for the changes some claim they desire, use them. That’s what they’re for.
There are several things that are very apparent to me. It’s obvious some believe AMFA is the only answer to achieving the highest wages, benefits, and security, no matter the carrier or state of the industry. However, there are those who don’t believe that and I’m one of them. When you factor in their present and past attitude toward sacrificing overhaul work in order to benefit their Line membership, I believe it would have an inevitable and predictable negative effect on the future of our overhaul workforce.
Example: “Southwest Airlines, the nation's leading discount carrier flying only domestic routes, has begun heavy maintenance of some of its Boeing 737 fleet in El Salvador, company executives said Thursday. Under agreements with its Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), Southwest on Wednesday flew its first 737 to Aeroman, an El Salvador-based maintenance, repair and overhaul facility”.
Most recent AMFA agreement and Southwest Airlines is not in Bankruptcy.
While the pro-AMFA supporters keep claiming our negotiations are tainted by the TWU’s efforts to save overhaul jobs whatever the cost, don’t be mislead as to their underlying motive. It’s been AMFA’s bargaining chip in past and recent negotiations, and they would like to see it on this property.
What they won’t admit is that without exception, the membership of every single union that worked through a bankruptcy has had to pay a high price. It didn’t matter who represented the people, whether it was the IAM, IBT, TWU or AMFA. Pilot and Flight Attendant unions also shared the pain. If there‘s any evidence to the contrary I’ve never seen it.
We’ve also reached the point that to simply shrug off the bankruptcy process as some temporary distraction is not being honest with the members or ourselves. Ironically, we still have individuals who seem to believe that all we have to do is say NO, and our future is secure. Or in the alternative, just hold on, and following a contract revocation should that happen, the negotiating environment will somehow miraculously change. It hasn’t happened yet, but If you believe in fairy tales that’s a good place to start. We also know that outsourcing remains a primary target for cost cutting in the industry. To think otherwise is to ignore reality. How we accomplish that while concurrently protecting the overhaul personnel to the extent possible will determine how successful these negotiations really are.
We are of necessity relying on the members of the Negotiating Committee who have far more information and insight into the state of the carrier than we do. We expect them to act responsibly and in the best interests of our entire system membership, not just the chosen few. Since the majority of our members have followed their advice, the decisions they make will either produce the results they keep implying await us, or jeopardize our careers and family’s future.
These are difficult times and we don’t need gamblers rolling the dice when the stakes are this high, nor do we need the distraction of the whiners in our ranks. The Constitution and Convention are the appropriate vehicles for the changes some claim they desire, use them. That’s what they’re for.
