Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Walmartgreeter]

Din't wish to because of an immanent lawsuit for colluding with USAPA to violate the transition agreement. Absolutely.

You voted for it. If you suspected foul play, why did you ratify a process you thought was the result of the Company and USAPA colluding to violate anything? The lack of logic here is epic.

Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

I agree with the Ninth. USAPA may NEVER be able to reach a ratifiable JCBA using the NIC. "Interminable" was the word used.

Greeter

usapa was never going to get a contract with or without the Nicolau.

 

[CallawayGolf]

You voted for it. If you suspected foul play, why did you ratify a process you thought was the result of the Company and USAPA colluding to violate anything? The lack of logic here is epic.

Greeter

I think you're confusing two different conversations. The comment you are responding to had nothing to do with the MOU. In fact it was part of an "absent the merger" discussion.

 

[nic4us]

Not "others." YOU, you moron and your f-ing moron lawyer. That's who I am blaming.

My f-ing moron lawyer sure does piss off reneging scabs such as yourself!

Worth every penny!

See you in court scab.

 

[cleardirect]

Have I ever said the west pilots should just step aside? No, what I've said is the they should sit down and talk about possible solutions, something they have not done since USAPA was formed.

What is there to talk about? This is the response from the union. the same response from day one.

Our union, our lawyers and our merger counsel have been advised that USAPA will begin the seniority integration process with APA by pursuing what Article I, Section 8 D of our Constitution requires, “To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

What is there to talk about? usapa is constitutionally mandated to reject the Nicola award in it's entirety. Are we going to talk about how usapa is going to put the bullet in our head or our chest with DOH?

 

[cleardirect]

You just voted on the "path!" Based on Marty's latest, you should have some severe buyer's remorse.

Greeter

Why? Did usapa (east pilots) lie and change the rules again? Tell us that the MOU was seniority neutral when it really was not?

 

[nic4us]

How about you nic? You want to take a stab at why the west attorneys wouldn't want to see the appeal sped up? I mean you took such offense at NYC's assertion that others had delayed this. Or are you still trying to get unscrewed from the ceiling?

I have no idea.

Also, I have no indication that AOL is against an expedited appeal, other than a partial quote posted here that I think is from the usapa lawyer.

The way I look at it is the appeal is somewhat irrelevant to the new reality of the merger and the MOU passage.

The DJ had to do with the company and usapa reneging on the Nic during stand alone LCC contract negotiations. No reason to expedite that if there is not going to be a stand alone LCC. Actually seems like a waste of time and money...so maybe that is why usapa wishes to ask for it! Waste West money and give Hummel a tough on the West appearance during his recall!

 

[nic4us]

You are such a professional. Smart too. Hope you end up in rehab after the NIC vanishes permanently.

How cute, my professionalism called into question by a reneging scab.

By "vanishes permanently" do you mean incorporated with the AMR pilot's list in a merger SLI? Because that is the only place the only accepted system seniority list at LCC is going to vanish.

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe someone addressed this and I missed it. Any comments on this?

OPPOSING COUNSELS’ POSITIONS AND STATUS OF
TRANSCRIPT PREPARATION

Counsel for US Airways states that US Airways will neither support nor
oppose a motion to expedite. Counsel for the West Pilot Class states that the West
Pilot Class intends to oppose any motion to expedite.

Why would your counsel oppose this. I thought you guys were interested in a speedy resolution.

What you don't understand is this case is not going to resolve anything. If the ninth dismisses or upholds the lower court nothing changes. The company did not get the answer they wanted and still have to determine if usapa's LUP is legitimate. Exactly what they were talking about in the letter to the NMB.

If the ninth remands back to Silver there will be more hearings. I don't think you will like the answer if Silver is allowed to answer the question.

How hypocritical though. After 5 years of delays documented by the company to the NMB usapa finally wants to hurry. Where were they two months ago when the case was filed? Why hurry now on a case that will not answer thew question?

Typical of a usapa response. They want to see the companies response. they want the west to respond before seeing the companies response but usapa wants a month to look at both responses before giving their answer. Nothing like seeing all the cards before making your bet.

 

[cleardirect]

I know you didn't ask me, but may I answer?

No, not if they did things the same way the did 5 years ago.

Now, a question for you. Do you think there is any chance that in the last 5 years they have learned anything at all. The have your whole case in front of them. They have people that were there that saw Seham's mistakes. For 5 years we have you guys failing to respond to any effort to come up with a solution. Do you think that changes anything? I'm guessing no.

I guess your saw the mistakes but were unable to learn from them.

This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

Has usapa changed a single thing in their proposal from 2008? DOH with the same weak C&R.

What did you expect us to come up with? Accept DOH and let the east take what you want. Is that the way you negotiate?

 

[cleardirect]

Nic blinders, or anger blindness. What if through negotiation the Nicolau award remained the seniority list, but other things were changed to help mitigate the effects? But remember Ferguson's campaign? He said there could be no mitigation.

Conflicts are resolved all the time if the two parties really want to try. You guys don't. You have too limited a view to think there is a better solution. So be it.

usapa's position.

This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

Tell us again how if two parties REALLY want to work something out.

In the world of usapa working it out means accept what you say.

 

[Metroyet]

Exacatly. So, what they do is NEGOTIATE and come up with a contract that does not violate the west's DFR, or at least reduces the likelihood, because anyone can sue at anytime. Have they done that, at all, in the last 5 years?

No. They haven't. Because it's the Nic. or nothing. That's been made clear. If they "negotiate" anything to disadvantage the West beyond what Nic. already did, it's places them on that same "dangerous ground" Silver made clear to you. This is what you don't understand:

Final and Binding is Final and Binding. The West has exactly ZERO obligation to even entertain the thought. After Costing 5 years and each pilot hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost pay do you actually believe the West is in any mood to captiulate a nanometer to you guys. You guys kicked the hornets nest and you've been living with the result for 5 years.

 

[flyboeing737]

Funny how the East is talking about professionalism. Binding Arbitration is binding. NIC is the list.
USAPA has sent you an MOU that cements the NIC.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes. It became abundantly clear to the mediator that the process was going nowhere because the company didn't wish to move while the courts pondered.

Read the companies letter to the NMB. The company is telling the NMB that it is usapa that is delaying a new contract. Charges very easily confirmed or denied. It would appear that the NMB confirmed them because they have not scheduled any meetings. I did not see any messages from usapa screaming about the unfair treatment from the NMB.

“While the West pilots have been willing to accept whatever result the court imposed, USAPA is not, arguing that no court decision should be issued until after the rest of the agreement has been negotiated. USAPA, not the company, is insisting on a protocol that would unnecessarily delay the implementation of a new CBA.”

[quote]“Unfortunately, USAPA is unwilling to concede that the courts will decide on whether its seniority method is lawful. Instead, USAPA has insisted that a protocol require the company to agree now to append the union’s date-of-hire seniority proposal to the tentative agreement to be put out for ratification by the pilot membership. That date-of-hire seniority list is inconsistent with the Transition Agreement and has repeatedly been challenged by the west pilots as a violation of USAPA’s duty of fair representation.”[/quote]

“USAPA has inexplicably resisted obtaining a judicial ruling concerning the lawfulness of its seniority proposal until after an agreement that may very well be nullified by a subsequent court action has been ratified. The approach insisted on by USAPA would cause significant and needless delay in the implementation of any CBA, particularly inasmuch as federal judges and a jury have already found USAPA’s proposal to be unlawful, and the west pilots have stated repeatedly that they will sue to invalidate any agreement that does not include the Nicolau Award.”

Consider those statements by the company. Does that sound like a company willing to put themselves at risk with a seniority list other than the Nicolau? the company can say they are neutral all day long. They may not say which list they want, but they certainly can say they will not accept a DOH list as it causes liability. they don't have to say usapa has to use the Nicolau they can just keep saying no to any list until usapa brings the Nicolau.

 

[EastUS1]

Why? Did usapa (east pilots) lie and change the rules again? Tell us that the MOU was seniority neutral when it really was not?

Before your group overwhelmingly voted in favor of the MOU: Were you at ANY point EVER told that the union's existing constitution and by laws were in ANY way, shape or form changed at ALL, even one iota, by the MOU? No? So where's the "lie", or is it simply an inability to read that's the problem here?

Just Fyi: Waah!...Sniffle/sob/whine/"and we hate you guys"/etc, isn't really any workable substitute for logical process.