Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Ames]

Hey, eastholes, welcome to the minority. Hope it's as much fun for you as it has been for us the past eight years. Kharma is a #### and hopefully she's having PMS.

 

[EastUS1]

You think I read all the crap you post?

No empirical evidence has yet been established from your collective postings that you do indeed read, so there's little argument to be made against that assertion.

 

[EastUS1]

Hey, eastholes, welcome to the minority. Hope it's as much fun for you as it has been for us the past eight years. Kharma is a #### and hopefully she's having PMS.

On another posting; you noted that you "grew up" on the east coast. Any thinking person over the age of at best 16, must now readilly question the presumption that you ever "grew up" at all, irregardless of geographical considerations.

 

[A320 Driver]

You see you or I did not get to decided what disadvantaged is. An arbitrator did that. His name was Nicolau.

This is what a federal judge had to say about the fairness of arbitration.




So here is a federal judge sayin gthat the Nicolau is fair and if usapa wants to exchange that list for a different list they better have a damn good reason, let's call it an LUP. Now in order for a fair award to be exchanged and one side or the other not disadvantaged that new list had better be as good or better than the first list.

Here is where we come back to the ninth saying usapa can try and find a proposal that does not disadvantage the west like we fear usapa will do. I did not state that the Nicolau was the starting point. Mr. Nicolau stated that was the gold standard to compare usapa 's proposal. The ninth circuit said usapa can try but it can not disadvantage the west using the gold standard of a fair arbitration as stated by a federal judge.

What do you have other than your opinion that you don't like the Nicolau because YOU think it is unfair?

Geroge Nicolau is a well respected senior arbitration. Don't forget you east guys think that being senior carries special weight so give the man his respect. The panel of arbitrators know him and I would imagine respect him. I would also speculate that they have all read his rulings over the years. As a matter of fact the arbitrator in the only MB arbitration to date referenced George Nicolau and this very award.

So I am very comfortable handing over this next integration to the arbitrators and letting them decide if a rogue union can ignore one of their colleagues rulings and make up their own list or will they ask what the courts have said and what LUP would usapa have for not using a list that the east pilots agreed to use.

I think it is a very good bet. what was a really bad bet was betting on usapa to get what you could not get at arbitration. Doubling down hoping that usapa can get you what you will not get at another arbitration is just sad.

Arbitration does not guarantee fairness. It may be the "gold standard" of fairness but only as much as DOH is the "gold standard" of seniority integration. In my thinking the fairness is tried by the logic the arbitrator uses in his/her construction of the list. Reading NIC II and it's explanations are very troubling to me. First, he said that the East brought no value to the table. Before he could get his award out, that was proven to be incorrect. Secondly, he gave no credit whatsoever to the furloughed pilots for their length of service...NONE. But within a few months, every one of those pilots were recalled and put back in the cockpit...he was wrong again. I respect your statement about being comfortable with a new arbitration under MB. Most of those arbitrations are a land grab by the respective pilot groups and it's up to the arbitration to sort that out. I too am comfortable with letting the chips fall where they may with a 3 arbitrator panel under M/B. We need this over. It has been a distraction for too long. West won't back off the NIC any more than USAPA will back off of DOH, so let three individuals with the power and backing of a federal law put this right. I will accept whatever they decide. It may look like the NIC, I don't know. We shall see.

 

[A320 Driver]

Hey, eastholes, welcome to the minority. Hope it's as much fun for you as it has been for us the past eight years. Kharma is a #### and hopefully she's having PMS.

So what? It is what it is. Hopefully being represented by the APA will prove to be more useful to the pilot group than what we have. Just look at the recall and the last elections to the BPR. Those reps are not centrists. Those are the angry guys that seem to enjoy the trouble they stir up. And since the "majority" around here don't seem to have the common sense to do what's right for the group, maybe being outnumbered will neuter them sufficiently that the group as a whole doesn't suffer stagnation and harm. Oh, BTW, you are STILL in the minority...just like us.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Man, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Pi brat
Posted Today, 07:47 PM






Ok had to transfer to reply.


The ninth said that it does not have to be the Nicolau but it also has to be a proposal that does not disadvantage the west as we fear. So in simple terms anything usapa proposes has to be equal or better than the Nicolau.

I have also previously addressed, before you go jumping on the as free as ALPA was. You have to go back and read what the district court said. I don't think you will be to happy about what the district court said about usapa being able to just change your name and arbitration goes away.


This is what judge Silver said about the new union inheriting contracts. That would also apply to liability.



To address another question. Judge Silver was speaking about negotiating a collective bargaining agreement. Since we are no longer in section 6 and the contract is essentially done. I ask again WHO is usapa going to negotiate seniority with and still maintain their duty to fairly represent the west at the same time not disadvantaging the west as we fear. Like the judge Silver said at the same time finding an LUP to justify not using an a fair arbitrated list?

So what proposal does usapa feel comfortable with proposing to the APA, the company and the arbitrators that has an LUP, does not disadvantage EVERY west pilots while advancing EVERY east pilot? DOH does that, the Nicolau does not.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Your source or precedent please counselor...(you can't quote Seham or any other lawyer). The court opinion that specifically outlines how this is legally going to happen....

The MOU that YOU recommended spells it out, Dave. If the POR is granted by the BK judge Sep 30 you'll know by New Years whether you or I'm right. You and AOL try to get your injunction. It won't get issued.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Everyone always forgets to state why their case was tossed and I see Breeze conveniently forgot as well. The ruling was tossed only on ripeness. Its merit was proven in court on the matter of a few hours. Ignoring fact won't make it go away.

Hows bottom reserve in DCA working out for you?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Looks like both the CLT and PHX training center will remain. My guess would be the PHX center will also remain and I would bet both will convert to Airbus only. The Dallas training center has Boeing and would be the place to consolidate there. With all the equipment coming in the next few years they are going to have to have a training bump.

 

[dca319]

No empirical evidence has yet been established from your collective postings that you do indeed read, so there's little argument to be made against that assertion.

Thank you General. You added so much to this discussion. Our tax dollars were well spent on you.

 

[dca319]

Hows bottom reserve in DCA working out for you?

I wouldn't know Jamie. How's your bitterness working out for you?

 

[cleardirect]

Arbitration does not guarantee fairness. It may be the "gold standard" of fairness but only as much as DOH is the "gold standard" of seniority integration. In my thinking the fairness is tried by the logic the arbitrator uses in his/her construction of the list. Reading NIC II and it's explanations are very troubling to me. First, he said that the East brought no value to the table. Before he could get his award out, that was proven to be incorrect. Secondly, he gave no credit whatsoever to the furloughed pilots for their length of service...NONE. But within a few months, every one of those pilots were recalled and put back in the cockpit...he was wrong again. I respect your statement about being comfortable with a new arbitration under MB. Most of those arbitrations are a land grab by the respective pilot groups and it's up to the arbitration to sort that out. I too am comfortable with letting the chips fall where they may with a 3 arbitrator panel under M/B. We need this over. It has been a distraction for too long. West won't back off the NIC any more than USAPA will back off of DOH, so let three individuals with the power and backing of a federal law put this right. I will accept whatever they decide. It may look like the NIC, I don't know. We shall see.

Guess you missed the TIC comment about the gold standard. It was Seham that coined DOH was the “gold standard” which is far from the truth. The method of arbitration is the gold standard but has no standard outcome. That is what the east wants a standard and defined outcome for arbitration. That would defeat the purpose of arbitration if everyone knows the result before starting.

More important is your examples of why the east brought no value or why the furloughs should have gotten credit. All POST MERGER result, the arbitration is based on PRE MERGER expectations. Something you east pilots fail to understand or refuse to acknowledge. What if in 6 months AFTER this new merger happens Parker takes all the international flying and gives it to AA? Could the APA point to that and say see you guys were not capable of performing that work?

I find it just a bit disingenuous that you would say now that you are comfortable letting an arbitrator or panel decide seniority. Because that is what we did last time and the east kicked like a little girl at the results. What will you do if the Nicolau is use and the list ends up relative again? Will you calmly accept the result this time or scream like a kid again and accuse the panel of bias and senility? If you will accept it this time what was the point of wasting the last 6 years fighting the Nicolau list?

I agree that we need this over. The west considers seniority over in 2007. We still consider it over, we have always considered it over. It now comes down to the east finally accepting that it is over.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I wouldn't know Jamie. How's your bitterness working out for you?

Bitterness? I wouldn't know.

But since you asked, life is great! On vacation, going to Robinson helicopter maintenance school for a week. Kids got all "A"s, are healthy as horses and my wife of 28 years and I are beaming from ear to ear. Valentines day was exceptional (wink, wink). Merging with AMR and the seniority issue is SETTLED in the MOU. Moving up the Captain ladder quite well and new reps in PHL. Profit sharing check shortly and pay raise and pay back this fall. Back to running 4 miles a day and flying average 10 hours a month.

Hitting on all cylinders and loving it.

How about you. Have you quit beating your wife?

 

[Phoenix]

Scores of school age children still learn family oral traditions about the war of Northern Aggression.. some have historical documents, and even uniforms from the period... appears to me some are intent on passing along traditional tales about the evils of the infamous USCABA. Put the integrity T-shirts in helium containers and GO SHOPPING ALREADY. 🙂

 

[Beancounter]

Bitterness? I wouldn't know.

But since you asked, life is great! On vacation, going to Robinson helicopter maintenance school for a week. Kids got all "A"s, are healthy as horses and my wife of 28 years and I are beaming from ear to ear. Valentines day was exceptional (wink, wink). Merging with AMR and the seniority issue is SETTLED in the MOU. Moving up the Captain ladder quite well and new reps in PHL. Profit sharing check shortly and pay raise and pay back this fall. Back to running 4 miles a day and flying average 10 hours a month.

Hitting on all cylinders and loving it.

How about you. Have you quit beating your wife?

Yes, you're acting angry and bitter. We don't know yet how the seniority will play out. You're acting like it's starting to sink in the Nic is it and reacting with denial and anger. If life's so good, don't worry about it. I'm worried that if the Nic is used, you're going to be the one beating your wife. Congratulation on the 28 years, it's a rarity not only in this industry, but todays society. I'm at 8 years and going strong.

Bean