Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

A couple of days ago, I made a comment to dca319 about the differences between the MOU roadshow in Philly and what he was told at the PHX roadshow. Might have gone over his head, but there was no denial about being in PHX.
breeze

I think that was me that said we got two different shows. PHX only got the APA negotiator and the lawyers and NAC told PHX that the MOU was seniority neutral. The merger committee also published an update that said the MOU was seniority neutral. So either you heard wrong or they were telling you something in private and the world something else in public. If that is the case usapa would not be representing the west pilots fairly AGAIN.

 

[mrbreeze]

I think that was me that said we got two different shows. PHX only got the APA negotiator and the lawyers and NAC told PHX that the MOU was seniority neutral. The merger committee also published an update that said the MOU was seniority neutral. So either you heard wrong or they were telling you something in private and the world something else in public. If that is the case usapa would not be representing the west pilots fairly AGAIN.

I think he was responding to your post....

[background=rgb(242, 242, 242)]
dca319, on 12 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:[/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]

That they never said. When I asked, they wouldn't even address the SLI.[/background]

They openly discussed it at the Philly meetings. I guess they expected to have an uproar if they told you guys the truth at your PHX meeting.
breeze

 

[cactusboy53]

Metroyet, on 14 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:
If the APA is dumb enough not to use the Nic. The WEST IS GOING TO SUE THE APA!!! See, I would have thought you understood by now how unions inherit the complete package from the prior Bargaining Agent. Every Single Judge has made it crystal clear that simply changing the name is meaningless. We all know....all of us that live in reality knows, i should say...that the APA will be 100% liable for anything you stupid scabs do. You know, You'd think that 5 years on commutter pay would be enough of an indication that you guys were completely wrong about how this thing was going to go down NO? There are many layers of lititgation in front of you if need be. I'd forget all about that meaningless MOU timeline if I were you.


The APA won't use the Nic list. They'll submit their own list and USAPA will submit our own list, and perhaps a third list may be submitted by a third party, who knows.

As far as the APA inheriting the complete package from USAPA, that's just absurd. They don't automatically inherit LOA 93, 21 days vacation, USAPA cb&l's. All of that has been renegotiated through the MOU.

One last thing, a lot of discussion comes from what Silver and the 9th have said. Most everything in those decisions were based on a US / AWA SLI, not on a USAPA / APA SLI.

Your source or precedent please counselor...(you can't quote Seham or any other lawyer). The court opinion that specifically outlines how this is legally going to happen....

 

[mrbreeze]

You can save it guys because the MoU vote is over. Our next event is SLI which is why I bring it up. I'm not going along with the Nic is dead stuff like some here are. No one has yet to put up any definitive evidence that the Nicolau won't be an issue. All everyone here posts is lip service mixed in with wishful thinking. I'm not buying it. I've seen no plan B from anyone.

Plan A.....a negotiated list with APA, which there is no requirement to use the NIC. (sue if you want strategy)

Plan B.....MB arbitration with 14,000 pilots involved, diluting everyone's expectations, no matter where you stand.
breeze

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Your source or precedent please counselor...(you can't quote Seham or any other lawyer). The court opinion that specifically outlines how this is legally going to happen....

We are obviously in uncharted territories on this one. I don't know of a time when a new SLI was put together without the previous SLI being completed. What I do know is under a MB arbirtration, if it happens to go to one, each CBA will submit their OWN lists, and the abritrators will take over from there. All this nonsense about the APA being liable for not using the NIC list is rediculous. It's not their job to use the NIC list, their job is to try to get the best award for their own pilots, not USAPA's and not AOL's. For all we know the arbirtrators could come up with a SLI that puts the former west pilots in a better posistion then the NIC list did. I certainly don't think we will get straight DOH. That's why I'm not convinced it will even go to arbirtration, it would be a total crap shoot at that point and American pilots could lose a lot more then they'd like.

 

[cleardirect]

That, sir, is where your boat springs a leak. That is what has your head all screwed up.
breeze

Show me where the ninth or any court has said it is OK to disadvantage the west in favor of the east.

 

[cleardirect]

I think he was responding to your post....


[background=rgb(242, 242, 242)]dca319, on 12 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]That they never said. When I asked, they wouldn't even address the SLI.[/background]

They openly discussed it at the Philly meetings. I guess they expected to have an uproar if they told you guys the truth at your PHX meeting.
breeze

Or maybe they expected an uproar if they told you the truth in PHL.

 

[traderjake]

What I do know is under a MB arbirtration, if it happens to go to one, each CBA will submit their OWN lists, and the abritrators will take over from there.

The seniority list exists in and is a function of the contract, not whatever the union decides to put on a piece of paper on any particular day.

Any change to the seniority list in the contract must be negotiated.

 

[mrbreeze]

Show me where the ninth or any court has said it is OK to disadvantage the west in favor of the east.

The problem is in what you call disadvantaged and what I see as disadvantaged. Stating that the NIC is the starting point isn't necessarily true and is argumentative. IMHO, if you're counting on that, a costly court process is where you will have to prove it......not an easy task.

You and nic4us claim that the NIC is the only accepted list at LCC. That's not the whole picture. ALPA presented the NIC and Parker accepted it. However, ALPA was replaced and when USAPA tried to submit a list, Parker could see the legal storm brewing, so he called a timeout, not wanting to get the company's neck farther into any legal noose. He stopped the whole process right at that point.

That is obvious in his comments in the crew new videos when he avoids discussion of whether the NIC or USAPA's list is the right path to take.

I really believe that you guys will be taking a big chance by suing for DFR.....good luck.

On the other hand, present your case to the MB arbitrators. That is probly your best bet.....IMHO. 🙂
breeze

 

[cleardirect]

The problem is in what you call disadvantaged and what I see as disadvantaged. Stating that the NIC is the starting point isn't necessarily true and is argumentative. IMHO, if you're counting on that, a costly court process is where you will have to prove it......not an easy task.

You and nic4us claim that the NIC is the only accepted list at LCC. That's not the whole picture. ALPA presented the NIC and Parker accepted it. However, ALPA was replaced and when USAPA tried to submit a list, Parker could see the legal storm brewing, so he called a timeout, not wanting to get the company's neck farther into any legal noose. He stopped the whole process right at that point.

That is obvious in his comments in the crew new videos when he avoids discussion of whether the NIC or USAPA's list is the right path to take.

I really believe that you guys will be taking a big chance by suing for DFR.....good luck.

On the other hand, present your case to the MB arbitrators. That is probly your best bet.....IMHO. 🙂
breeze

You see you or I did not get to decided what disadvantaged is. An arbitrator did that. His name was Nicolau.

This is what a federal judge had to say about the fairness of arbitration.

Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.

So here is a federal judge sayin gthat the Nicolau is fair and if usapa wants to exchange that list for a different list they better have a damn good reason, let's call it an LUP. Now in order for a fair award to be exchanged and one side or the other not disadvantaged that new list had better be as good or better than the first list.

Here is where we come back to the ninth saying usapa can try and find a proposal that does not disadvantage the west like we fear usapa will do. I did not state that the Nicolau was the starting point. Mr. Nicolau stated that was the gold standard to compare usapa 's proposal. The ninth circuit said usapa can try but it can not disadvantage the west using the gold standard of a fair arbitration as stated by a federal judge.

What do you have other than your opinion that you don't like the Nicolau because YOU think it is unfair?

Geroge Nicolau is a well respected senior arbitration. Don't forget you east guys think that being senior carries special weight so give the man his respect. The panel of arbitrators know him and I would imagine respect him. I would also speculate that they have all read his rulings over the years. As a matter of fact the arbitrator in the only MB arbitration to date referenced George Nicolau and this very award.

So I am very comfortable handing over this next integration to the arbitrators and letting them decide if a rogue union can ignore one of their colleagues rulings and make up their own list or will they ask what the courts have said and what LUP would usapa have for not using a list that the east pilots agreed to use.

I think it is a very good bet. what was a really bad bet was betting on usapa to get what you could not get at arbitration. Doubling down hoping that usapa can get you what you will not get at another arbitration is just sad.

 

[mrbreeze]

The whole process doesn't stop with NIC issuing his award.....there is more history and a much bigger picture to the whole dispute.....end of ALPA, birth of USAPA, all the legal filings. No court has said that USAPA had to use the NIC, except Wake and his case was thrown out. There has been no ruling on whether USAPA inherits ALPA's work. No one has ruled on whether this is an internal union dispute or if NIC is the law. It's all part of the equation.

One reason that I haven't been on these boards that much lately is that it's the same old argument over and over. I'm tired of hearing all the crap, regardless of which side is slinging it. I have no desire to rehash the crap every few days. There is more to life.

Good luck,
breeze

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Almost 100% of PHX pilots just voted for a new methodology of list integration. That method only takes place on acceptance of a POR by the BK Judge in the AMR filing. Nothing, I repeat Nothing has changed in regards to any seniority issues East and West until that very moment.

Settle down boys and girls. Any big guns reference seniority that could have been fired would have already BEEN fired. Do any of you really think there is a Federal filing left of any substance? Nope. Look for a timely and worthless grievance to be filed. Nothing more.

Greeter

 

[dca319]

A couple of days ago, I made a comment to dca319 about the differences between the MOU roadshow in Philly and what he was told at the PHX roadshow. Might have gone over his head, but there was no denial about being in PHX.
breeze

You think I read all the crap you post? Possibly skipped it but most likely ignored it. Don't lose any sleep over it.

 

[dca319]

The whole process doesn't stop with NIC issuing his award.....there is more history and a much bigger picture to the whole dispute.....end of ALPA, birth of USAPA, all the legal filings. No court has said that USAPA had to use the NIC, except Wake and his case was thrown out. There has been no ruling on whether USAPA inherits ALPA's work. No one has ruled on whether this is an internal union dispute or if NIC is the law. It's all part of the equation.

One reason that I haven't been on these boards that much lately is that it's the same old argument over and over. I'm tired of hearing all the crap, regardless of which side is slinging it. I have no desire to rehash the crap every few days. There is more to life.

Good luck,
breeze

Everyone always forgets to state why their case was tossed and I see Breeze conveniently forgot as well. The ruling was tossed only on ripeness. Its merit was proven in court on the matter of a few hours. Ignoring fact won't make it go away.

 

[dca319]

Plan A.....a negotiated list with APA, which there is no requirement to use the NIC. (sue if you want strategy)

Plan B.....MB arbitration with 14,000 pilots involved, diluting everyone's expectations, no matter where you stand.
breeze

Big picture....which road leads to no litigation? Using the Nicolau or ignoring it? Why is the west class coming to the SLI? The Nicolau does not simply disappear no matter how hard you wishfully think.