Do-littles' Not Affected By Sellout

[Bob Owens]

Pilots Contract.
Pay

Section 3

3A Captains Pay

1. Day hourly flight pay component for Captains.
Ranges from 130.58 to 171.93 by 5/1/08

2. Mileage pay component for Captains:
Three cents for each mile flown

3. Gross weight pay component for Captains
Three cents per thousand pounds of gross weight of the airplane flown for each hour flown.

4. All Captains shall receieve pay in accordance with 1. through 3. above multiplied by the following percentages applicable to their total accredited service with the company as a pilot ;
2nd year-92.50%,,,,,,,,,,,,,12th year & thereafter 100%.

5. The day hourly rates developed in 4.above shall be adjusted to produce hourly day rates and hourly night rates on a differential of $5.00.

6. Suppliment A contains hourly pay giudes. The pay guides do not include international override and are only guides. Actual pay rates are calculated in accordance with the agreement.


Now shall we compare just this one article to what the TWU has done for or should I say "to" mechanics?

At one time pilots earned double of what mechanics did, now their hourly base rate is over 6 times what we get, thats not to say that pilots have done very well either, they report that they too are earning less in real dollars than they were years ago.

 

[seed]

So, in your eyes, we, the union, would have been better off in BK. The investigations done , under the direction of the TWU, meant nothing, simply smoke and mirrors, correct? There was absolutely no reason to even suggest that the slightest of concessions was necessary for the existence of a viable airline. Imagine, AA pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, except yours of course, and raped us as Icahn did TWA. AA stole from non union as well, shreading any attept for them to live a modest life. Thank you for the insight, how enlightened I now feel. AMFA would have done what if BA at the time? Asked for a third investigation? Asked to have 25 observers allowed into sit and watch? Argued with strike leverage? Or, would they have requested to allow the BK decide what is fair and equitable, as USAir, and UAL are currently? Tell you the truth Bob, I wouldn't want to be the TWU or AMFA right now. The pilots are going after everything they can, as they should. The stews are struggling as is every other work group in our industry. I cannot see where the TWU is responsible for AMFA's failure at NW and other airlines, I realize you blame the TWU for cold weather in the winter months , but I think you have a bit of latent hatred for your ousting.

You stated the TWU is a disgrace of a union. Was it a disgrace at the time you were milking it for 28k/year plus additional hours for your "home" auditting. I'd wager a small bet that you would still be living off the "disgrace" had they not seen through your deception of a union officer and ousted you as the true "disgrace". That is but my opinion, not looking to throw mud here but you make a person wonder by your direction.

 

[Decision 2004]

So, in your eyes, we, the union, would have been better off in BK.

Imagine, AA pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, except yours of course, and raped us as Icahn did TWA.

I cannot see where the TWU is responsible for AMFA's failure at NW and other airlines, I realize you blame the TWU for cold weather in the winter months , but I think you have a bit of latent hatred for your ousting.

[post="233375"][/post]​

There is still good reason to suspect the company was NOT going Bankrupt, we sit for over a year watching losses after 9-11, NO REPONSE from AA.

We watched as other airlines invoked force majeure and reduced headcount and capacity. NO REPONSE from AA

We watched as AA placed a deadline on concession voting. Then they allowed more time for the F/A's to get them the concessions.

We watched as the truth came out about SERP Bonuses for top management.

We have now watched fuel consume MORE than the concessions given and AA is still not BK yet.

I think there is enough there to say our only choices might not have been as you claim.

And more importantly, shouldn't "We the Union" have been able to decide the issue with a legitimate vote, instead of the dictator imposing his will on "we the union"? Nobody knows for sure what would have happened if the restructuring ratification had failed. But we all know that "We the Union" were never offered a legitimate ratification, this according to Jim Little himself.

And now look here, still evidence of Bad Faith Bargaining by AA...

More TWU Proof of Bad Faith by AA

So why is it you bury your head in the sand and believe everything the lying management and the proven dishonest union leadership tells you?

Seed, you can keep defending the liars and thieves of AA and the docile TWU all you want, but if you would read a little bit instead of blabbing away, you will find that both AA and the TWU are producing documents on a regular basis that indicated you have indeed had the wool pulled over your eyes and are being raped.

These are NOT AMFA documents that reveal the truth, it is the participants of the charade that are bringing the truth forward.

Nobody is claiming the TWU is responsible for your version of AMFA's failures at NWA. But the TWU has without a doubt been directly responsible for 20 plus years of concessions, even giving a 6 year with 6 1/2% pay increase during a very profitable time in the industry. Not to mention the SRP sub standard wage created within the same contract. Think about that seed 20 YEARS of Concessions, not just one instance of concessions or BK, 20 YEARS of Concessions and Givebacks.

How many times must you be told? The AMFA has not failed! The idea of AMFA is to get ALL MECHANICS into one union and mobilize them to stop the dustruction of the profession. And to be blunt as possible, THAT IDEA HAS NOT BEEN TRIED SO IT COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY FAILED.

And until folks like you get a clue, the idea may never be tried, yet you want to claim the untried idea has already failed.

You have plenty of evidence that inudstrial unionism is failing the profession, yet you continue to blame a philosophy that has not been tried or tested, and you do everything in your power to insure the idea never does get tried.

Am I missing something here? Or is that really simple to grasp and understand?

I'll give you a chance to respond. Just simply tell us what the TWU or the Industrial Union has done to advance your pay and benefits, and protect the interest of your chosen profession? Can you respond to that simple question without the personal attacks and playground rhetoric? Please feel free to enlighten us.

P.S. Have you noticed the board now appears civil since the problem child has been sent elsewhere?

 

[Bob Owens]

seed,Dec 29 2004, 09:11 PM]
So, in your eyes, we, the union, would have been better off in BK.

We, the members, would have been better off not meeting the unwarranted, unprecidented concessions that the company demanded. You, the TWU would have probably been worse off fighting for the members because that would cost money. Money that is needed by the TWU for International officers six figure salaries, perks and generous pensions.

How come you simply ignore the fact that by the time this agreement is over the pilots will be within 7% of the same contract that they had prior to concessions while we will be at least 18% below what we were getting? The fact is the pilots got a better deal, they already got back more than we will and they had more at stake than anyone else.Why should we have agreed to such an inequitable deal?

The investigations done , under the direction of the TWU, meant nothing, simply smoke and mirrors, correct?

Yes. Why did the TWU hire the same people that the company used to make its presentation to the leaders of the union? Did they expect them to come to an unbiased different conclusion or did they just want them to help sell it to the members? It was not an investigation at all.

In January of 2003 Jim Little and Gary Yingst came to our swearing in. They swore up and down that they were taking the company up on its offer to "see the books", they claimed they were doing it for information they could use during the next round of negotiations, not to set us up for concessions, they then handed us the non-union made buttons from the APA calling for single carrier status and asked us to distribute them to the members.

We didnt trust them and knew they were full of shyte. There is no doubt in my mind that the "resetting of wages" as the NWA President recently discussed was well in the works even prior to 9-11. And I have no doubt that Little was a part of this sellout plan in the hopes that the TWU would end up with more members as a result.

There was absolutely no reason to even suggest that the slightest of concessions was necessary for the existence of a viable airline.

Thats you speaking, not me. Besides we did not give "slight" concessions, we gave massive, unprecidented concessions!

Imagine, AA pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, except yours of course, and raped us as Icahn did TWA. AA stole from non union as well, shreading any attept for them to live a modest life. Thank you for the insight, how enlightened I now feel.

AA, the unions and everyone else who stood to gain from low wages and the potential that AA may benifit from the demise of two other competitors pulled the wool over just enough eyes to ram this thing down our throats.

AMFA would have done what if BA at the time?

Rephrase the question. What is BA?

Asked for a third investigation?

Perhaps just one with a company that did not already have a relationship with AMR. Two investigations? Where did you get that from? It was one investigation where the results were passed to the second firm.

Asked to have 25 observers allowed into sit and watch? Argued with strike leverage?

Sure, why not?

Or, would they have requested to allow the BK decide what is fair and equitable, as USAir, and UAL are currently?

Why not, along with the threat of a strike of course. The judge is walking all over those workers because the unions have not stood their ground. Do you think the Judge would have granted the company anything if he was looking at a strike? Read your Labor history boy, collusion between the courts against the interests has happened before.The fact is "happliy ever after" only exists in fairy tales, deception, corruption and greed still exist.

Tell you the truth Bob, I wouldn't want to be the TWU or AMFA right now. The pilots are going after everything they can, as they should.

And I guess we shouldnt? Why the double standard?

The stews are struggling as is every other work group in our industry.
I cannot see where the TWU is responsible for AMFA's failure at NW and other airlines, I realize you blame the TWU for cold weather in the winter months , but I think you have a bit of latent hatred for your ousting.

Thats funny because your co-cultists are always claiming that AMFA is responsible for our twenty year downward trend. Its not the ousting that annoys me, its the decietful mismanagement of the TWU and its betrayal to the cause of labor.The TWU is responsible for the last twenty years of failures at AA where they took advantage of our dispersed membership to strike a devils pact with AA to give them concessions to fund growth against other competitors. The TWU got more members as their payoff and its structure allowed them to defer blame on powerless Presidents.In other words the International was untouchable.


You stated the TWU is a disgrace of a union. Was it a disgrace at the time you were milking it for 28k/year plus additional hours for your "home" auditting.

Yes it was, thats why I was working with others to reform it. Change from within is what the TWU always claimed. I tried it and found out that they only change that they seek is to change those who look at a union as a cause to sell out and think of it as a means to a better and new carreer as a business unionist.

I'd wager a small bet that you would still be living off the "disgrace" had they not seen through your deception of a union officer and ousted you as the true "disgrace". That is but my opinion, not looking to throw mud here but you make a person wonder by your direction.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, you can be sure that if I was still in office I would be seeking to oust Little and company at the next Convention and put democratic reforms in place.

 

[seed]

20 years of concessions, that's a heavy number. Were any of AA/TWU agreements voted upon by the TWU membership, or were the imposed by the TWU. Regardless of what is presented to the membership for a vote, ALL items could have been rejected , thus forcing the two entities to again hit the "bargaining table". This evidently did not occur, your membership voted each contract in. Now I could see blaming the TWU for one or two contracts with weak language and low raises, but 20 years worth?

 

[Buck]

20 years of concessions, that's a heavy number. Were any of AA/TWU agreements voted upon by the TWU membership, or were the imposed by the TWU. Regardless of what is presented to the membership for a vote, ALL items could have been rejected , thus forcing the two entities to again hit the "bargaining table". This evidently did not occur, your membership voted each contract in. Now I could see blaming the TWU for one or two contracts with weak language and low raises, but 20 years worth?

[post="233720"][/post]​

Yes twenty years worth! Ever since the creation of the "B-Scale" by the TWU the membership has been divided. "I got mine brother" is the TWU's battle cry. If you present those members as a majority with a lucrative contract that is paid for with sub standard wages for those that are yet to be hired, you create an atmosphere of division.

This has allowed the company to hire many more than they would have, which is a "win win" situation for both the company and the union. The company obtains more labor at a lower cost and the union gains more dues payers.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Mr. Seed, I do enjoy reading your post's. But there is something you should know about the visitors to this forum. There are a select few who keep complaning about past events, and really have "little to offer", to support their agenda...! You will soon see that their complaints fall within the archives of this forum. Yet there are a select few who cling to the same old "song and dance".....!!!!!!

Again, I enjoy your posts. But try not to be overcome with the boredom of the opposition's position.......

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Decision 2004]

Mr. Seed, I do enjoy reading your post's. But there is something you should know about the visitors to this forum. There are a select few who keep complaning about past events, and really have "little to offer", to support their agenda...! You will soon see that their complaints fall within the archives of this forum. Yet there are a select few who cling to the same old "song and dance".....!!!!!!

Again, I enjoy your posts. But try not to be overcome with the boredom of the opposition's position.......

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="234004"][/post]​

Well hey now, if you do not want to use the past events to debate the issues, then please by-all means tell us what the FUTURE holds and we will debate that.

I apologize my crystal ball is broken and the past is all I know to be true.

If you want to debate the future, then clue me in, I am ready to be enlightned.

If the TWU past is not the issue, then why is the TWU preparing to restructure the ATD? It appears according the this TWU Document that the past is indeed the issue with the survey respondents.

Survey Results and Process for TWU Change - Thursday, December 16, 2004 at 15:41
December 16, 2004

VIA FACSIMILE & EMAIL

TO: All AA Locals and Members

RE: Survey Results and Process for TWU Change

Dear Sisters and Brothers:

Attached please find a summary of results from the membership survey we recently conducted at American Airlines. After reviewing the results and sharing them with the Air Transport Division (ATD) staff, Local Presidents and officers from around the system, I feel we’ve received a strong message for change from you, the membership. While the results show loyalty to the TWU, there also is a high degree of dissatisfaction with the union at all levels – local, international and the Air Transport Division.

Specifically, the majority of survey respondents ask for more communication and more opportunities for participation and changes to our collective bargaining system. This indicates that our members want to have a stronger voice in determining the future of our union. I also heard a call for a more aggressive approach to our dealings with American Airlines; a feeling that we need to stand up and demand that the company accept us as equal partners.

This survey was prepared by Abernathy Associates and tabulated by Peter Hart Research Associates, both top-notch firms based in Washington, D.C. that have a long history with labor organizations. According to Peter Hart Research Associates, the return rate was large enough as to insure a very little margin of error.

As Air Transport Division Director, I take these results very seriously and am committed to transforming the TWU into a union that is responsive to its members’ needs. After a great deal of communicating with our staff and local officers, I am implementing a process for change that, ultimately, will be led by you, the membership.

We will begin this process immediately. In January 2005, we will use the survey results to craft specific proposals for improving communications and membership participation. These proposals will be presented to the
membership in the form of a referendum and will only go forward with the membership’s approval.

From January 2005 to April 2005, we will convene a committee of Local Presidents/Representatives whose task will be to develop proposals for changes to our bargaining system. Again, we will use the survey results to shape specific proposals that can be incorporated into a referendum subject to the membership’s approval.

A third area of change, which we will consider, is structural changes within our locals and the ATD. While the survey does not show a strong demand for this, many local officers have expressed concern to me that there may be a need for structural changes in order to move forward. We will again put together a referendum for a membership vote.

This three-step process is only the beginning. I urge you to read the attached summary of the survey results and spend time thinking about what you need from your union. I have set up a special E-mail address at [email protected]. Please feel free to share these thoughts with me.

In Solidarity,


James C. Little
Director Air Transport Division
Intl. Executive Vice President

attachment

JCL:cjw opeiu-153 afl-cio

C: M. O’Brien
IAC
Intl. AA Staff Assigned

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Mr. Seed, I do enjoy reading your post's. But there is something you should know about the visitors to this forum. There are a select few who keep complaning about past events, and really have "little to offer", to support their agenda...! You will soon see that their complaints fall within the archives of this forum. Yet there are a select few who cling to the same old "song and dance".....!!!!!!

Again, I enjoy your posts. But try not to be overcome with the boredom of the opposition's position.......

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="234004"][/post]​

hss, talking to yourself are you? hss, the cowardly schizo. Very funny.

Who is complaining about the past? I see/read people pointing out the short sightedness of the twu. I see/read examples of the twu's inability to protect our proud craft & profession.

What is your definition of "little to offer"? Perhaps 28 1/2% wage/benefit reductions? AMTs have pointed out the downfall of belonging to a undemocratic industrial union and educated others of the benefits of belonging to a democratic craft union. An authorization for an election was rigged to prevent democracy from working. But only for the short time. Eventually AMFA will be elected over the twu and their cowardly supporters.

I do not see you, or your other alias identities defending the twu's "without further ratification" or the twu's ability to have international officers appointed instead of being elected by the full membership. All you are capable of doing is hiding in the shadows and typing lies and half truths.

You want to offer a little? Try acting like a professional AMT. That is if that is what a hss is.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Ahh decision, I see that you're willing to post the reply from the TWU International on the survey that was distributed to the members of the TWU. But the only question is, did you fill out the survey...???

Did you request your issues be addressed....? Or did you take the position of "Kenny Boy", and refuse to contribute to the survey...?

With the reply from the International. They are willing to explore suggestions for change to the ATD. And with these suggestions, for the future of the represented members of the TWU neither, you or I, can predict what the members will support for change, if any....!!!!

But the question is, "did you participate"..??? Or did you choose to "stand in the Lobby"...??????

You're still my hero decision 2004

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[High Speed Steel]

hss, talking to yourself are you? hss, the cowardly schizo. Very funny.

Who is complaining about the past? I see/read people pointing out the short sightedness of the twu. I see/read examples of the twu's inability to protect our proud craft & profession.

What is your definition of "little to offer"? Perhaps 28 1/2% wage/benefit reductions? AMTs have pointed out the downfall of belonging to a undemocratic industrial union and educated others of the benefits of belonging to a democratic craft union. An authorization for an election was rigged to prevent democracy from working. But only for the short time. Eventually AMFA will be elected over the twu and their cowardly supporters.

I do not see you, or your other alias identities defending the twu's "without further ratification" or the twu's ability to have international officers appointed instead of being elected by the full membership. All you are capable of doing is hiding in the shadows and typing lies and half truths.

You want to offer a little? Try acting like a professional AMT. That is if that is what a hss is.

[post="234028"][/post]​

Dude, review your own post....! Again, "ARCHIVE" :blink: Still crying about the past? Why don't you take up knitting, may ease your pain

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Buck]

Mr. Seed, I do enjoy reading your post's. But there is something you should know about the visitors to this forum. There are a select few who keep complaning about past events, and really have "little to offer", to support their agenda...! You will soon see that their complaints fall within the archives of this forum. Yet there are a select few who cling to the same old "song and dance".....!!!!!!

Again, I enjoy your posts. But try not to be overcome with the boredom of the opposition's position.......

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="234004"][/post]​

The question made reference to the past twenty years. HSS that is the past, do you understand? I did not think so!

 

[High Speed Steel]

The question made reference to the past twenty years. HSS that is the past, do you understand? I did not think so!

[post="234044"][/post]​

Ok Buck, You win..."I'll cry out uncle"

You really got me on that one :blink:

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Buck]

Ok Buck, You win..."I'll cry out uncle"

You really got me on that one :blink:

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="234057"][/post]​

Yes I did and it was easy......

But that is the past and you do not want to acknowledge the past.

I believe you are afraid of the TWU history repeating itself. Another "B-Scale" or how about the removal of a classification?

 

[High Speed Steel]

Yes I did and it was easy......

But that is the past and you do not want to acknowledge the past.

I believe you are afraid of the TWU history repeating itself. Another "B-Scale" or how about the removal of a classification?

[post="234071"][/post]​

What classification? Do you mean our's....?????

Be careful what you wish for Buck....!!!!

amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!