Democracy In Action

[Buck]

Qoute from aapitbull;

It seems you missed the point and the question,which was why did the company provide transportation to and from this meeting. While I will admit I was not present at the meeting I did talk to two people that were there and according to them after the Twu members identified themselves they were asked to leave at which point they turned to the mechanic's from US Air that were there to hear what was being presented and asked if they could stay or should leave,at that point they were told in no uncertain terms they should leave.

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Question 1.

AA did not pay for transportation.

Question 2.

Delle and his leader said they wanted the AA members removed and was not going to conduct the meeting until they left. The AA employees asked at least twice to have a vote and Delle and his leaders refused to conduct one. It was not until one of the USAir mechanics asked them to leave and with the mutual respect of our profession, the AA mechanics left.

What are the Leaders of Amfa afraid off?

CIO and J7915:

I am sure that I will see you at the AMFA informational meeting tomoorrow. You know the one for American Airlines employees. Maybe you guys could show up and on your own time instead of on UB?

 

[Bob Owens]

OK so Delle made AA mechanics leave a USAIR meeting.

So? Did any the USAIR guys ask them to come? If so then as long as they were not disruptive and the majority was ok with it they should have been allowed to stay since it was reportedly only an informational meeting.

How come Local 514 would not allow Local 562 members to attend a meeting? We are in the same union and the same company under the same contract!

How come Sonny Hall blocked Tim Schemerhorn from attending meetings within the same Local?(Local 100)

I'm against the suppression of differeing opinions no matter who does it but its a little hypocritical for those who have a leader who has been convicted in court of a pattern of suppression and violating members rights, who has removed duly elected officers on bogus unsubstantited charges, and has violated the Constitution of the Union to fling stones at another unions leader who asked non-members to leave a meeting he was having with workers of another company.

 

[Drippy Quill]

who has removed duly elected officers on bogus unsubstantited charges...just who was removed on bogus charges? You got to be kidding .

 

[Checking it Out]

Bob,

A vote was asked for at least twice and the potential members were denied the right to have a vote on the issue 'If the AA Mechanics could stay"

The supreme Leader denied the Potential Members the right! But, who cares the members at large don't vote on Delle anyway!

 

[RV4]

Bob,

A vote was asked for at least twice and the potential members were denied the right to have a vote on the issue 'If the AA Mechanics could stay"

The supreme Leader denied the Potential Members the right! But, who cares the members at large don't vote on Delle anyway!

You have alot of nerve talking about being "denied the right to vote".

ARE YOU BLINDED BY THE HEADLIGHTS OF THE BUS?

 

[Thomas Paine]

Bob,

A vote was asked for at least twice and the potential members were denied the right to have a vote on the issue 'If the AA Mechanics could stay"

The supreme Leader denied the Potential Members the right! But, who cares the members at large don't vote on Delle anyway!

Does anyone out there consider CIO credible?

Was CIO present?

Why doesnt someone try and contact a USAIR member who was actually there to find out what really happened?

There was a post on The-mechanic.com from someone who claimed to be a USAIR mechanic who was present. His version was much different than CIOs. He claimed that the USAIR guys agreed that those who came there from AA should leave. If thats the case, being that this was a USAIR meeting it was a reasonable action to tell them to leave.

If the invitation was to the USAIR mechanics exclusively then the AA guys were wrong to try and go there.

 

[Bob Owens]

who has removed duly elected officers on bogus unsubstantited charges...just who was removed on bogus charges? You got to be kidding .

Sonny Hall removed Chuck Schalk because he would not submit to being humiliated by Jim Little and he removed me because he did not like posts that had my name on them, he never contacted me to ask if I was the author, for most them I was, but he should have at least asked. I still feel that all my criticisms were valid.

Sonny did not only ever contact me prior to suspending me. He would not take my phone calls after suspending me, he used his $105,000/year secretary to block my calls, and he did not even show up to the trial!

How can workers respect such a coward, who presses charges, takes action and then hides from the accused? What kind of a fascist would deny the accused the right to face his accuser?

Sonnys charges went back to March of 2003 yet when I went to his office with Rick DeMarco from LAX in May and spoke with Sonny at length he never even mentioned anything about offensive posts.

Personally I think that Jim Little went crying to Sonny to have us pulled. You should read his remarks in Chuck Schalks transcript, what a lying sack of $#!+.
However this in no way clears Sonny. A person who takes such drastic action without checking the facts is not fit to lead. Accusations are one thing but to take the action of removing me from my duties and placing an unfair burden on our local is inexcusable. The reason why he refused to testify more than likely in my opinion is because he had no real knowledge of what was going on, but he was the only one with the authority to press such charges. Along with such authority goes the resposibility to use good judgement and not rely on someone whose track record as far as the truth goes like Jim (not on my watch) Little.

 

[Bob Owens]

CIO;

There is a post on the-mechanic site that disputes your claim. That anonymous poster claims to have been there. You do not. So as far as credibility goes, since you have none, I would consider his post more likely to be more accurate.

 

[Drippy Quill]

So did you guys , while representing TWU , attempt to secure AMFA for your bargaining agent? Hand out cards or try and recruit for AMFA. It's easy to skirt around the issues and change them to fit your needs but how about telling the truth? You forced the TWU to ask for signatures by your inability to concede your positions willingly and then persue your dreams of AMFA , unless of course all the charges are trumped and you are loyal to the TWU.

You seem to deny the facts here...

 

[Bob Owens]

So did you guys , while representing TWU , attempt to secure AMFA for your bargaining agent? Hand out cards or try and recruit for AMFA. It's easy to skirt around the issues and change them to fit your needs but how about telling the truth? You forced the TWU to ask for signatures by your inability to concede your positions willingly and then persue your dreams of AMFA , unless of course all the charges are trumped and you are loyal to the TWU.

You seem to deny the facts here...

What are you talking about?

What signatures?

I have been trying to bring changes from within.

I did not write to Sonny Hall three years ago urging change in order to get rid of the TWU.

I did not write to every President that had an E-mail urging them to propose that an accountable, accurate voting process be put in place for the next Convention to get rid of the TWU but to strengthen it.

I did not urge Jim Little to offer strong support to United airlines during the PEB and bankruptcy proceedings to help AMFA but to show the power of the AFL-CIO.

I did not urge Jim Little to picket Delta Airlines to protest their termination of a TWU organizer to hurt the drive but to show Delta workers how unions can stand behind their members. Jim Little wrote back that most members dont really care.

I did not tell Bobby Gless not to include titty bar bills on his expense reports and try to build our locals treasury in order to hurt the TWU. I did it so we could show the members that we could build an effective local even with the TWU.

Prior to the Separate Locals I did hand out and collect cards for AMFA. No different than Bobby Gless who not only was an organizer but also hosted an AMFA meeting at his home (I did not attend). I did not subscribe to the baggage handler bashing that many AMFA supporters followed. I had no problems with our Local 501 officials and attended union meetings even though I felt that mechanics should control their own destiny.When we were offered the separate Locals I convinced many members to support it. The process however has never been completed. How come its ok for SWA flight attendants to have a seperate Local (556), contract etc from other SWA TWU workers (Local 555) but wrong for Mechanics to want a similar setup?

I think that the AMFA vote will force the TWU to finally change, if not, and maybe even if they do, they will surely lose the mechanics. The fact is prior to this agreement there was no AMFA drive to speak of. Not only did we take massive cuts, but we undercut bankrupt airlines. We already had given AA low costs, low enough that there really was no reason to outsource. Economics kept the work in house, not strong contract language. We do not fly to Asia, European Overhaul is not cheaper and South America does not have the capacity and most of those countries are not considered that stable.

The fact is we gave much too much, and that is why there is not only an AMFA drive but the dispatchers have petitioned to leave and now Fleet has started with a drive towards the newly formed AGW. The fact that Jim Little is still in place gives none of these groups any reason to believe that things will ever improve. Yanking elected officers who are voicing their members fustrations will certainly not slow down any of these drives. Just as Koziatek had to go because of the 95 agreement so too does Jim Little and his crew, its just the way it is. If we had real democracy there is no way that either the 95 or 2003 agreements ever would have come back for a vote. We shall continue to see Presidents replaced. Nester Rodriguez was bounced out so will Mike Chiafalo, Jack Maddish, Duke Hingley, Tim Gillespie, Tony Gonzalez, Randy McDonald, Curtis Gentry, John Plowman, Ortengren and all the the yes men who are all due to face election before 2006. The International will not have room for them all. The members have no confidence in the Little regime, but they cant vote them out and many know that sending a new President will not change the results of the old President but since they are the only ones they can vent on, they are history. Why is sending Little, Yingst and Gless back to the floor, to work under the agreements that they said we should accept such a terrible fate? Is it worth losing one third of the Union to protect these guys?

By the TWU training departments own admission only a minority of the membership is ever active. To get a majority of the members to do anything is very difficult. Well according to the AMFA card count a majority of Title 1, has filled out cards for an election. I think that we all can admit that its very likely that AMFA will file before March 17, 2004, right after we get our big 1.5% raise. It is also very likely that since the TWU under Sonny Hall will not make the neccissary changes to give the members accountability and democracy that not only will AMFA win, but that others will also leave the TWU.

Three years ago I told Hall, Hoffa and Buffenbarger (all of whom never worked in this industry) what should be done. I came to this conclusion after talking to hundreds of airline workers from many different airlines in many different classes and crafts and other unionists. I warned them of what might happen in the future if they did not take at least some steps towards a restructing and consolidation of the airline labor movement. They ignored it. We all paid the price, and now the bill lies on their doorstep, and its past due.

 

[Drippy Quill]

So after all that...you innocent of promoting AMFA?

 

[Superside]

Gentlemen,
I'm not easily impressed. I do not get involved in supporting political candidates unless I agree with them or they support an issue of intrest to me.
I got involved in supporting the Change to AMFA only after reading, researching
and comparing both AMFA and TWU.
Had I not been open minded when my co-workers showed me that first artical about AMFA I fear I would have made a big mistake. The mistake of beening closed minded.

With the AMFA info meeting fresh in my mind. After witnessing the events of the afternoon.
I must tell you all I am VERY IMPRESSED. The leadership of the AMFA( both the local organizing committee and the national) have an excellent grasp on what needs to be done.
I like helping promote AMFA, but today I realized that it is not a change just for better representation.
GENTLEMEN, IT IS A CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR FAMILIES,OUR CHILDREN,AND THE FUTURE OF GENERATIONS TO COME.
The TWU has damaged that future, YES, WE...THE TWU, a divided house ,have inflicted this damage on the ENTIRE US AVIATION INDUSTRY. The future of possibly thousands of families have been degraded. They / WE may never recover.

I was part of the decision on the future of which I speak.

Now, many challanges were mounted by 514 supporters. All questions and challenges were answered PROFESSIONALLY and CLEARLY.
The TWU reps( local) reactions can only be described as blank.
I'ts time for the TWU 514 leadership to step up, drop the selfish attitude and ask all members of Mechanic and Related to sign a card.
The AMFA slogan "Secure your future" is means exactly that.
Don't forget, if your not part of the cure...your part of the problem.
Sincerely,
Derek Mills,
Hydraulic Shop, Tulsa.

 

[twuer]

Quote from Superside. . .

Now, many challanges were mounted by 514 supporters. All questions and challenges were answered PROFESSIONALLY and CLEARLY.
The TWU reps( local) reactions can only be described as blank.

With all due respect Superside, you must not have attended all the meetings. They put on a good show, I will admit that, but flustered (for lack of a better term)on more than one occasion. Delle and the boys AGAIN removed those who would dare debate some tough issues. They were not hostile, being argumentative or disruptive. Tell me, why do you think that is??? And don't change the subject and turn the argument around towards the TWU. Just answer the question asked. (That goes for all you other AMFA boys as well) This was an open forum, was it not? All are welcome??? I believe Delle made a quote somewhat close to that at one time. If all are welcome why kick some out? I just don't get it.

There was quite the turnout in support of AMFA. What, did they get 75, maybe 92 total for all their meetings??? WOW!!!! Impressive!!! Maybe they should have scheduled more meetings.


:jerry: (Delle, Delle)

 

[Superside]

Ok twuer,
With due respect, but use the term "boys". Ok fair enough.
Answer to question 1: No, I could not attend all the meetings as I do not have enough vacation left... Wonder why?
#2 Open meeting? Yes, those asked to leave made sure they would be asked to leave, so they could loudly claim.... "Thats Democracy for ya"
#3 All are welcome? Yes, all.
So why didn't 514 leadership let the membership know that they had reseved a room, and invite the whole membership? They like making bold claims in the "Informer" do they not? Why scurry to the meeting quietly?The leadership that was present really wasn't up tp the task. To quote you TWuer "... WOW!!!! Impressive!!! Maybe they should have scheduled more meetings..."
You want Impressive?...You want more meetings? Get back to the "Rat Shed" on Pine St. and Get them to agree to a debate at the Brady or wherever.
AMFA has already challenged you. Bring your best. They have offered to pay half. Hell, I'll make sure I donate extra money and effort to make it happen.
The thrill of victory is getting closer for one, agony of defeat closer for the other.(with all due respect)I've answered you Q's, now please answer mine.
You and I both know who the victor will be...don't we? lol, lol, lol,lol,lol,lol,

 

[Drippy Quill]

Kinda obvious isn't it?