Overspeed
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Which is why the US is not a democracy. It's a republic. So the very country you live in, post on the internet in, and belong to a union in is not a democracy.
Democracy In Action
- Thread starter Ken MacTiernan
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Which is why the US is not a democracy. It's a republic. So the very country you live in, post on the internet in, and belong to a union in is not a democracy.
Overspeed
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"We"? Is there a mouse in your pocket?
Craft unionism is not the solution. Read this excerpt from an independent analysis of craft unionism in the airline industry from 2005. Unions need to modify their strategies and also organize others in the industry. A legislative agenda is key as well.
"Specialization and/or division of labor do not allow the worker to have control over the entire product and/or labor process. This has been recognized at least since the time of Adam Smith (Smith 1977 [1776]). In addition to this, specialization and skill formation in contemporary global capitalism puts the individual worker at risk of instant de-skilling, despite the seemingly intact “physical” attributes or use value of the skills themselves. This raises a crucial question about the redundancy of workers’ skills and highlights the difficulty of reliance on “craft” skills to enhance workplace control. Skilling and de-skilling of the labor force are the inevitable result of the competitive pressures created by global technological change. Three global trends within air transport affecting airline mechanics—the diminished role of major carriers, the change in fleet composition, and the growing use of outsourcing—are symptomatic of heightened competitive pressure in this industry. A framework developed in this article, synthesizing “creative destruction” and “destructive creation”, unifies the use value and exchange value of commodities (including those of skills), and thus presents a dynamic picture of commoditization of the labor process in the present stage of capitalism. This, both in theoretical and historical terms, challenges labor unions, such as AMFA—that are guided by the anachronism of craft orientation and often appeal to workers’ sense of professionalism—and cautions to reevaluate their strategy. Minimally, the trends we have discussed and their impact on the skills of mechanics in air transport, raise troubling doubts regarding the ability of craft unions to successfully control the workplace. In view of this fact, labor educators and union activists should be skeptical of any inference that organizing along craft lines will improve the position of those working in the majority of workplaces in the globalized economy."
odie01
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Yep, going on four years of acting like professionals as a whole, and what has it got us? Just because I call you dickweed does not make me less of a professional mechanic, it makes me an honest mechanic. We are fed up with your cheerleading for a team that doesn't even play the same game we do, and if you think your gaining ground on convincing us that the last TA was acceptable, your wrong. We will vote down the August TA, if it's nothing more than shuffled furniture on the Titanic.
Why give up more with the TA, we will work under this one and stay unsettled. Do you think Airbus and Boing will provide the financing with three labor groups that have expired contracts? F' it, we came this far, why sign for the chump change of a signing bonus, no medical retirement, loss of amt jobs through another job classification, VC, SK. ect. the list goes on. Your truley out of touch D.W!
- Aug 20, 2002
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At least in the country I choose to live gives me some return on my investment.
I can choose not to live in this country or post on the internet, however I do not have a full choice to have the representation I would like. I must pay dues [taxes]or the union will have me fired.
I cannot vote for the International Officers, but I do have the right to vote for or against those who represent me the the republic. So the TWU International is not a republic, what is it?
OP
Ken MacTiernan
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Don/Bob/Kevin,
"Ken not saying you have not made valid points but a new union? That's not going to make things better. The same people will run it and things like term limits prevent good people from staying involved. Checks and balances are a good thing so why not do that within the TWU. It can happen but you need to be organized in your approach. Don V started that about 15 years ago why not talk to him about it. Calm down and think it through."
A new union yes. That will make things better. The same people will NOT be running AMP because everyone in AMP will be elected by the membership and there are term limits for the National Officers. So you see, the same people will not be running AMP who run the twu because people like Bobby "lower your expectations" Gless and other appointed twu int. officers will be running into HR or fight for a spot in the twu international maybe running the casino dealers.
Term limits prevent good people from staying? Where are they going to go? Oh, that's right. These people will return to the floor and be held accountable by the very people who they represented. Why would these people not continue to support AMP?
Checks and balances within the twu? Where would these checks and balances be? Let me know when the membership gets to vote on ALL twu ATD officers AND Jim Little's position. Until then your checks and balances are a dream. Why would I talk to you/Don Videtich about my approach? You try and insinuate that I flip-flop, etc. You again are blind.
I was elected by the membership in SAN and DFW because I was asked to run for office. I supported AMFA because they are a craft, democratic union. But with the company trying to include dead people and people no longer employed at AA as eligible people in my craft and class plus their addition of about 1200 cabin cleaners in my craft and class an election was not to be. Nothing has changed. I still support those within AMFA. (Who by the way earn more than a twu AMT does.)
The twu's continued arrogance and unaccountability created AMP. If the twu was the best union out there for AMTs why would AMP have to be formed? I was on the E-Board of Local 565 because I was asked to run for office. I won and enjoyed my position on the Board. I was elected by the membership. I resigned my E-Board position so I could fully promote AMP. I still support Local 565 in all they do because they hold themselves accountable and behave professional and listen to the membership.
If you/Don wish to call me go ahead. I have no problem talking to anyone. I simply believe in what is best for my craft and class and under the twu that is never going to happen. I will not "lower my expectations" and I will also vote NO on any t/a that doesn't have FULL RETRO included.
Oh, one last thing,
"Don V started that about 15 years ago why not talk to him about it. Calm down and think it through."
Why hasn't Don V/your checks and balances worked yet? After 15 years there has been the same old twu unaccountable, appointed version of democracy. It is time for change. That is for sure and that change does not include the twu representing my craft and class.
"Ken not saying you have not made valid points but a new union? That's not going to make things better. The same people will run it and things like term limits prevent good people from staying involved. Checks and balances are a good thing so why not do that within the TWU. It can happen but you need to be organized in your approach. Don V started that about 15 years ago why not talk to him about it. Calm down and think it through."
A new union yes. That will make things better. The same people will NOT be running AMP because everyone in AMP will be elected by the membership and there are term limits for the National Officers. So you see, the same people will not be running AMP who run the twu because people like Bobby "lower your expectations" Gless and other appointed twu int. officers will be running into HR or fight for a spot in the twu international maybe running the casino dealers.
Term limits prevent good people from staying? Where are they going to go? Oh, that's right. These people will return to the floor and be held accountable by the very people who they represented. Why would these people not continue to support AMP?
Checks and balances within the twu? Where would these checks and balances be? Let me know when the membership gets to vote on ALL twu ATD officers AND Jim Little's position. Until then your checks and balances are a dream. Why would I talk to you/Don Videtich about my approach? You try and insinuate that I flip-flop, etc. You again are blind.
I was elected by the membership in SAN and DFW because I was asked to run for office. I supported AMFA because they are a craft, democratic union. But with the company trying to include dead people and people no longer employed at AA as eligible people in my craft and class plus their addition of about 1200 cabin cleaners in my craft and class an election was not to be. Nothing has changed. I still support those within AMFA. (Who by the way earn more than a twu AMT does.)
The twu's continued arrogance and unaccountability created AMP. If the twu was the best union out there for AMTs why would AMP have to be formed? I was on the E-Board of Local 565 because I was asked to run for office. I won and enjoyed my position on the Board. I was elected by the membership. I resigned my E-Board position so I could fully promote AMP. I still support Local 565 in all they do because they hold themselves accountable and behave professional and listen to the membership.
If you/Don wish to call me go ahead. I have no problem talking to anyone. I simply believe in what is best for my craft and class and under the twu that is never going to happen. I will not "lower my expectations" and I will also vote NO on any t/a that doesn't have FULL RETRO included.
Oh, one last thing,
"Don V started that about 15 years ago why not talk to him about it. Calm down and think it through."
Why hasn't Don V/your checks and balances worked yet? After 15 years there has been the same old twu unaccountable, appointed version of democracy. It is time for change. That is for sure and that change does not include the twu representing my craft and class.
Overspeed
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Still not valid. Just because AMP was created by AMTs doesn't mean its right. So was AMFA, remember you resigned and promoted them as well. That drive failed and then you supported the TWU again as an officer. Sounds like a flip flop alright. You just want to get noticed and feel important apparently. You are noticed for sure...as a flip flopper. Don't really stand for anything unless its all about you.
No problem about voting no. I am sure after one year of Bob's failed tactics the members have realized that Plan B of push the mediator for release isn't a viable alternative for them. When I sit with my fellow union members the are pissed at concessions, they are upset with management taking bonuses, and yeah they are upset with their union negotiating team. They have been talking for three years and what they have been doing is not working however guess what, they don't want to and can't afford it. The company knows this and you are naive if you think otherwise. Sure, you have a few vocal supporters but look around you are they ready to walk out?
Ken, hopefully I am wrong but if history plays out, you may just get rid of the TWU and a lot of jobs in the process.
High Speed Steel
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Oh, boy. That really hurt when you resigned your position at 565 ken. Wow, and the AMP support? Maybe pulling your bottom lip over your head and swallowing wasn't such a bad idea after all....
Yet the invisible man posts again here on US Aviation.com...
odie01
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Hey Speedy,Oh, boy. That really hurt when you resigned your position at 565 ken. Wow, and the AMP support? Maybe pulling your bottom lip over your head and swallowing wasn't such a bad idea after all....
Yet the invisible man posts again here on US Aviation.com...
Their is a good possibility that the twu is going to organize the Las Vegas maids, or as they like to be called, professional bed makers.
http://twulocal721.org/green_cards.htm
I am really starting to see things your way, with all the slilled labor pooled under the twu, we deffinatlly have strength in numbers.
Overspeed
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Yes, you can choose to work in an open shop. It's called a non-union one and they are located in Arkansas, Ohio, and Washington. Do you want me to send you the career website? Danny Martinez would live to have you work for him at the old non-union UA facility in IND.
Do you live in US? Then you do not vote for the executive branch of the government. It is voted in by the electoral college which you vote for a person vote for you. So did your elected delegate vote your choice in the last TWU convention? It was probably your President and other officers. Did you ask them? Maybe you should start by holding your local officers accountable.
odie01
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I understand the electoral college crap, but does that also work for 140k a year secretaries and appointed organizers, and so on? Very confusing how this drunkfest twu convention works in Las Vegas.
- Aug 20, 2002
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I live in Tulsa, you know Local 514?, and yes I know how the electoral system works. Do I have the ability to vote for that electorate? No.
They can do that brother!
What about the TWU having the ability to fire the members?
Overspeed
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It's a closed shop. You knew that when you hired in. I fully support Article 38.
And I fully support agency fee and hand pay. Big drive in TULE on Jan 1st.
Overspeed
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That's your option. Of course you know license protection and the ability to vote on contracts and motions goes away when you do that?
Actually Overspeed, you are once again incorrect...license protection falls under representation and is that is protected while on agency fee. That my boy the TWU is still obligated to provide! Get your information straight before you pop off at the mouth.
By the way, since you are so up on the TWU's internal affairs, was it Phat Don or KS who burried the bundle of joy Ms. Crystal's oven?
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