Consumer Reports raises concerns about outsourced airline maintenance

[strikeforce]

We had a 90% card signing 6 months ago.

Great!!!!!!

But, we ALL need to do a better job of communicating this to others, and especially TULSA!!!! This should be a NO BRAINER!!!

We should be at 99% systemwide. We will never convince the 1% TWU lovers. LET'S DO IT!!!!!!

IF YOU WANT CHANGE FOR THE BETTER........SIGN AN AMP CARD NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Meanwhile, you (the AA AMTs) stay the course with the TWU and negotiators like Bob Owens; they have failed you for more than a quarter century yet you still haven't removed them as your representative.

Well to be fair I've only been there since Jan 1 2009, I think that I've made a mark and done some things that havent been done before but I'm only one person and despite the title of being a negotiator the fact is legally I'm just a witness thats aloud to speak and enter an opinion. I know it, the Mediator knows it and so does the company. They really could care less what I say to them, they are only concerned about what I say to the membership. Hopefully that effects the outcome.

One of the things that I encouraged was changing our bylaws to allow recall. If my members feel they want me out they dont have to wait for an election.

Not sure what any of this has to do with outsourced maintenance though.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have no doubt that maintenance is important and the safety record we have in aviation is because of what is happening today iN ADDITION to what happened years ago. To somehow think that unionized maintenance workers are the only ones who can learn from the mistakes of previous generations is mighty presumptious. .

Who said anything about unionized labor? Who is being presumtious? I speak as an Aircraft mechanic with over 30 years experience, what makes you an authority on Aircraft Maintenance?

From the minute the latest WN incident occurred, you and others rushed to judgment convinced that contrators were the source of the problem - and yet all that has been released so far was that it was a manufacturing error. So you have turned your sights on contract manufacturing, as if you have just discovered some new reality. Newsflash, Bob. There are precious few products anywhere in the world that are manufactured solely by one company - which means there are contractors and suppliers involved.

The AA 757 was clearly a manufacturers error, however the SWA failure was most likely both. Historically the airlines do over and above manufacturers minimum recommendations, however with cost cutting the carriers are going closer to manufacturers minimums so we will likely see more of this as time goes by. As MCI brought up those cracks were probably pretty advanced the last time that airplane went through a heavy check, they just never found them. Reportedly that section was originally constructed by Spirit for Boeing. So the people the built it wrong were 3P and the people who didnt find it were 3P. Sure there's always been work sent out, its unavoidable, but there are risks.

Again despite your attempt to rush to judgment, you can't provide any more evidence other than your anecdotal evidence that Boeing or anyone else doesn't make design and manufacturing errors that contractors just replicated. Do you really think that Boeing did not have oversight over whatever was being done on its planes, from design, to manufacturing, to acceptance of the finished components?

Boeing made the mistake of accepting the outsourced parts as if they made them themselves, probably because if they thouroughly backchecked the work they would not realize any savings from outsourcing.

For you or anyone to think that I am pro-management belies the fact that I am as ruthless about AA mgmt's failures as anyone on the web. But I am also ruthless at pointing out your own failures, Bob. Because WT could just as easily mean the WHOLE TRUTH, something which you and a whole lot of the rest of people at AA seem unable to accept, esp. the part that might involve your own failings.

It could also mean Wasted Time, which is usually what dicussions with you amount to.

To be honest with you, Bob, the more you post, the more I realize why AA labor is in such deep trouble. You can't figure out how to do labor's part to get AA out of the mess it is in, instead choosing to blame everyone else and to believe that the world is all out to get you.

Thats why companies have management. They put us in this mess, we gave them close to $3 billion and they are still in a mess, I'm not willing to thow any more money into their solution.

Get a life, Bob, and come up with a strategy to save the jobs of thousands of your members instead of continuing to live in some alternative world. Your inaction only will result in the obvious consequences, including the eventual failure of American Airlines at the hands of a bunch of people including management who sit by and play beautiful music while blaming others as the Titanic sinks.

AAs future is not something I control, thats way above my pay grade, my job is to get as much out of this company as I can, once I get that in return I'm willing to give the company my best efforts as far as fixing their aircraft in the most efficient cost effective way, that means that we will work odd shifts, holidays, wekends in all sorts of weather.

 

[Birdman]

Speaking of outsourcing, can any validate a rumor that AA tried to outsource several 757's but was told turnaround would be in excess of 100 days? Also, it was said that the fiasco on dock 1D (7 day coverage) was costing an extra $1,000,000 per aircraft, which if true would certainly make one wonder what moron is refusing to pull the plug on yet another failed experiment.

 

[Buck]

Speaking of outsourcing, can any validate a rumor that AA tried to outsource several 757's but was told turnaround would be in excess of 100 days? Also, it was said that the fiasco on dock 1D (7 day coverage) was costing an extra $1,000,000 per aircraft, which if true would certainly make one wonder what moron is refusing to pull the plug on yet another failed experiment.

I work on 1D and that is somewhat true. It is 7 day coverage, at this time we are doing the 737 Retro Package. The original est. was about 600,000. But throw in the corrosion in the Aft Cabin and the LAV Drain corrosion, plus Non-Routines and it approaches 1,200000 to 1,500000, in around 35 - 40 days.

 

[Bob Owens]

Speaking of outsourcing, can any validate a rumor that AA tried to outsource several 757's but was told turnaround would be in excess of 100 days?

Thats another point I try to bring up all the time, lets say all of a sudden AA decided it was going to outsource all of their OH. Where would they send it? If 3P providers are having trouble keeping up with what they have what makes anyone think that tomorrow AA could outsource all their work?

Lets look at whats happened over the last 10 years.
Wages have declined by around 40% in the airline industry. More and more mechanics are finding that they can maintain a higher standard of living in General Aviation, especially if they get their IA, than in Commercial Aviation. Even more are finding that their skillsets are portable and other industries provide better wages and working conditions than the airlines without the hassles and uncertainty. That means that Commercial Aviation with night shift, weekend and Holiday work isnt that attractive anymore.
The number of people seeking their A&Ps has declined by around 30%. Some of those getting certified are foreign nationals who leave the country after becoming certified.
Over 54% of the mechanics at AA are over 50 years of age.

The fact is we have never had this good of a position against the company before. They know they cant replace us, their strategy is to bank on our fears and our age. They figure that we are too afraid to risk being dumped into the job market as middle aged job seekers to capitalize on our advantage. Sure there's risk but where has being safe gotten us?

I think that outsourced maintenance is not nearly as big of a threat to workers at AA as it is to the flying public. However I dont think that most airlines could bring that work back in house even if they wanted to. many of the guys who stayed in the industry after getting laid off from the airlines and went to those places dont want to go back. Especially at UAL in SFO where housing isnt affordable. They are better off at $25/hr in a low cost area than $35/hr in SFO.

 

[strikeforce]

Thats another point I try to bring up all the time, lets say all of a sudden AA decided it was going to outsource all of their OH. Where would they send it? If 3P providers are having trouble keeping up with what they have what makes anyone think that tomorrow AA could outsource all their work?

The number of people seeking their A&Ps has declined by around 30%. Some of those getting certified are foreign nationals who leave the country after becoming certified.
Over 54% of the mechanics at AA are over 50 years of age.

The fact is we have never had this good of a position against the company before. They know they cant replace us, their strategy is to bank on our fears and our age. They figure that we are too afraid to risk being dumped into the job market as middle aged job seekers to capitalize on our advantage. Sure there's risk but where has being safe gotten us?

I think that outsourced maintenance is not nearly as big of a threat to workers at AA as it is to the flying public. However I dont think that most airlines could bring that work back in house even if they wanted to. many of the guys who stayed in the industry after getting laid off from the airlines and went to those places dont want to go back. Especially at UAL in SFO where housing isnt affordable. They are better off at $25/hr in a low cost area than $35/hr in SFO.

Bob, I'm real confused by some your statements. First, you say AA would have a hard time finding 3P hack shops because of the backlog in work. Next, you say few, if any, new amt's are getting certified and entering commercial aviation. Lastly, you mention that "we have never had this good of a position against the company before". If your statements are true and if in fact supply of available amt's is less than the demand for amt's by airlines, then why are you and our negotiating team having difficulty in securing an agreement similar to the 2001 agreement? This supply and demand imbalance should result in higher wages and benefits, and that hasn't been the case for us at AA. Why?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, I'm real confused by some your statements. First, you say AA would have a hard time finding 3P hack shops because of the backlog in work. Next, you say few, if any, new amt's are getting certified and entering commercial aviation. Lastly, you mention that "we have never had this good of a position against the company before". If your statements are true and if in fact supply of available amt's is less than the demand for amt's by airlines, then why are you and our negotiating team having difficulty in securing an agreement similar to the 2001 agreement? This supply and demand imbalance should result in higher wages and benefits, and that hasn't been the case for us at AA. Why?

Because the NMB will not release us.

Without the threat of self-help what tools do we have at the table to compel management to bargain? As long as they can drag things out they will, especially if they are getting everything they want under the status quo. So they come to negotiations month after month, move a few things around and claim they are moving, thats enough to satisfy the NMB that progress can be made and we get strung along another month. For instance at the last session they agreed to up the Holidays to 10, which is what we had, management never gave up and some of our BK peers also kept. They extended the contract making it a seven year deal, took away the little retro there was, the Wage Adjustment provision and added other concessions such as the Medical and retiree medical yet the Mediator said that they moved towards us so he refused to recommend that we be released.

 

[strikeforce]

Because the NMB will not release us.

Without the threat of self-help what tools do we have at the table to compel management to bargain? As long as they can drag things out they will, especially if they are getting everything they want under the status quo. So they come to negotiations month after month, move a few things around and claim they are moving, thats enough to satisfy the NMB that progress can be made and we get strung along another month. For instance at the last session they agreed to up the Holidays to 10, which is what we had, management never gave up and some of our BK peers also kept. They extended the contract making it a seven year deal, took away the little retro there was, the Wage Adjustment provision and added other concessions such as the Medical and retiree medical yet the Mediator said that they moved towards us so he refused to recommend that we be released.

So, this shortage of amt's hasn't reached a critical point for AA, and it really hasn't benefitted us in negotiations, right?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Thats why companies have management. They put us in this mess, we gave them close to $3 billion and they are still in a mess, I'm not willing to thow any more money into their solution.



AAs future is not something I control, thats way above my pay grade, my job is to get as much out of this company as I can, once I get that in return I'm willing to give the company my best efforts as far as fixing their aircraft in the most efficient cost effective way, that means that we will work odd shifts, holidays, wekends in all sorts of weather.

apparently negotiating with professionals is above your pay grade, too, Bob.
The fact that you are determined to get what you can out of the company without realizing that the only way labor wins is if they figure out a way for the company to also win is precisely why organized labor in the US is in shambles.
WN is the most successful labor-mgmt relationship in the US airline industry and their labor relations are defined by a win-win approach. I am not saying that labor alone has to give... WN's labor unions aren't pushovers. But they have developed a relationship that is defined by win-win and they solve problems such that the company and the union can win.
As you continue to try to spin how wrong everyone else is for outsourcing everything from manufacturing to airline maintenance, the world has moved on because the vast majority of people in the industry can understand the changed dyanmics of the industry and adapt to them, something you seem incapable of even hearing.
That is probably also why the combined DL/NW workforce decided that labor unions have added very little value but have created a huge amount of damage to the industry that DL employees (including alot of PMNW employees) decided was not part of the working relationship they wanted.
Obviously not everyone sees the way the majority of DL employees did or the way WN employees do but you cannot mistake that DL and WN are two of the most successful companies in the industry and they are finding success at the same time they and their employees find the ability to work together.
When you and other AA labor leaders can figure that out, there might be a chance of saving AA. without it, AA's future is doomed. Arguing that you stand up for the "profession" is a pile of rubbish and won't hold an ounce of water when AA is acquired by another carrier that will have no qualms about busting AA labor or in liquidation where creditors will spit labor out as they protect their own interests.

So, this shortage of amt's hasn't reached a critical point for AA, and it really hasn't benefitted us in negotiations, right?

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -------WT, I agree in principle with what your saying,---------- "but", we've been down this path so many times! And you still don't get it!-------- To achieve that relationship, there needs to be mutual trust between Management and the Unions. That trust was breached with the "shared sacrifice" lie!!!------- End of story!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

<_< -------WT, I agree in principle with what your saying,---------- "but", we've been down this path so many times! And you still don't get it!-------- To achieve that relationship, there needs to be mutual trust between Management and the Unions. That trust was breached with the "shared sacrifice" lie!!!------- End of story!!!

the problem is that life is near 50-50. When AA goes down the tubes or AA mgmt decides to finally take control of the situation and do what it has to do to save the company, labor loses. You and every other AA person loses. The profession loses. Organized labor loses.
.
I am not out to sell anyone out to foreign competitors but I shake my head in amazement that after how many bankruptcies and how many liquidations in the industry, AA labor leaders (and many employees) still think that they are going to get what they want and they are not about to cooperate in any way. What is GUARANTEED by history is that unless AA is turned around, all of the above lose plus the stockholders. The only people who are likely to come out OK is mgmt - because they always manage to find a way to do so....
.
that reality being front and center, it would seem to me that "I will hold out until I get what I want" would best be changed to "I will work to get the best I can given the obviously lopsided situation I face"..... lots of times in life, you have to give up something in order to gain ANYTHING.
I still stand by my statement that AA employees don't need to face huge paycuts but they do need to cut OVERALL COSTS (ie less people) and fix the revenue problems which are eating away at the heart of what made AA strong.
.
I get the whole thing about inept management... but I also get that you have far more ability to obtain management that will turn the company around if you (collectively) do your part to turn things around... there are contracts that can be written that hold management accountable for what they should do... you will fight an uphill battle getting those types of protections put in place.... but remember that AA and mgmt are almost at the end of their rope so they are going to be looking for options as well.
continuing to argue that we will give nothing, we will only talk if we get back what we have given up etc only endears mgmt to let things run their course with the predictable result that everyone except for mgmt loses... your job must be to take your message of turning AA around to the people who will also get hurt and can't afford it - Wall Street - investors, analysts, creditors - the public. And you must have a plan that says "we will do our part but we will only do it with a management team that will demonstrate they can use our contributions for OUR collective good... this team blew it once."
.
I wish you all well.. but I know that you cannot continue down the road AA is on much longer... they are getting kicked in the teeth by competitors, their own financial house is in shambles with borrowed money, and no one seems to be able to figure out what needs to be done to turn things around.
.
Someone, PLEASE, demonstrate some leadership and intelligence.

 

[Birdman]

.
I wish you all well.. but I know that you cannot continue down the road AA is on much longer... they are getting kicked in the teeth by competitors, their own financial house is in shambles with borrowed money, and no one seems to be able to figure out what needs to be done to turn things around.
.
Someone, PLEASE, demonstrate some leadership and intelligence.

Thats pretty twisted. You want us to "give in" so that an inept management, who has nothing to lose and who doesn't have a clue as to how to fix the problem, can save the compAAny from certain doom and dispare? That's some choice advice.

 

[strikeforce]

Because the NMB will not release us.

Without the threat of self-help what tools do we have at the table to compel management to bargain? As long as they can drag things out they will, especially if they are getting everything they want under the status quo. So they come to negotiations month after month, move a few things around and claim they are moving, thats enough to satisfy the NMB that progress can be made and we get strung along another month. For instance at the last session they agreed to up the Holidays to 10, which is what we had, management never gave up and some of our BK peers also kept. They extended the contract making it a seven year deal, took away the little retro there was, the Wage Adjustment provision and added other concessions such as the Medical and retiree medical yet the Mediator said that they moved towards us so he refused to recommend that we be released.

I can understand your problems.

Besides the arguement of restoring our wages and benefits to pre-2003 levels, and sham behind "shared sacrifice", what other compelling arguements have you, and the union presented the company to convince the company to bargain in good faith?
I'm suggesting that you put yourself in managements shoes for a minute. The idea of outsourcing maintenance is hanging in the wings....what reasons would you want to hear from the labor side that would sway your decisions to keep any maintenance in-house?
The reason I'm bringing this up is because at UAL, NW, UPS, and even WN, the labor groups obviously couldn't sway managements decision to keep OH in house, and for the exception of UAL and NW, labor relations at WN & UPS are very good.

As a labor organization, that's really what we are up against. We must provide the company compelling reasons on why they should keep the TWU, as the contractor of choice, over the 3P hack shops, right?

If it's strictly money, you lose. If it's more about quality and quantity, you may have a case, but not a very strong case.

 

[commavia]

Wow - reading through this thread is comical.

It's hysterical that people here simultaneously decry how AA's competitors are shipping maintenance work to El Salvador so allegedly unlicensed mechanics can do the job at $2/hour, and then in the same breath feign outrage and intrigue at the suggestion that their cost might have something to do with AMR's financial performance relative to competitors. One just has to laugh. It couldn't possibly be more clear: the two are connected!

AA's unit costs - both labor and maintenance/engineering - are among the highest in the U.S. for various reasons, including - yes - the costs of AA's employees. Your pay is higher than industry average (and certainly when one averages in the El Salvador/China wages of your competing mechanics), you have a defined benefit pension that is still being actively funded, you have medical benefits, etc. That reality is unavoidable.

I'm not saying that the solution is necessarily concessions, and certainly not that AA should outsource maintenance to a third party vendor, let alone another country. But, it is striking that labor can be so hot and bothered over competition from non-union, allegedly unlicensed mechanics in third world country stealing the work from their "profession" or "craft" and then stoutly refuse to acknowledge that they are simply not competitive with those mechanics (that all of AA's competitors are now using).

As I said on another forum addressing this same topic: if a plane is sent to El Salvador for maintenance, and the plane doesn't crash and nobody dies, does anybody really care? Seems dramatic, but it's true. As it stands today, from my experience, for the vast majority of travelers, if the choice is to fly on AA, which performs 100% of heavy maintenance overhauls in-house with its own union employees in the U.S. or Airline "X," which outsources that work to mechanics in El Salvador, and Airline "X" is pricing out at $10 less, most people won't ever think twice about booking with Airline "X." That's just reality for most people.

I, myself, fly on AA constantly, and I like the fact that those planes are maintained by licensed, English-speaking mechanics in the U.S. under the oversight of the FAA. But would most people be willing to pay AA a premium for the comfort of that knowledge? I think not. Thousands of people per day happily step onto U.S. airplanes that were overhauled in El Salvador, China, etc. without ever even knowing and/or caring. And until that changes - and, to be more direct, until organized labor figures out a way to demonstrate its value to the flying public and policy makers - the trend of lower-cost competition, greater cost pressure, and diminishing financial performance for AA will continue.