American Airlines pilot union chief: We asked too much, put too many items on the table

[CIO]

Hey Cio you ask me what a professional negotiater was and said that the APA didn't even use one seems they have seen the error of their ways.
maybe you could ask all your friends at the APA what a professional negotiater is and why they think they now need one or two!!!

I find Captain Bates’ statement as interesting as you Pitbull. You have told us that AMP is modeled after APA, which you said requires professional negotiators. I pointed out last summer that APA was not using a professional negotiator, something which Captain Bates confirmed. He has determined that the APA’s approach to negotiations was unrealistic and unnecessarily confrontational over the past few years and that it needed professional negotiating assistance. Now, in seeking such assistance he did not look to the attorney on AMP’s website, which is not surprising since he and his firm were fired by APA nearly twenty years ago. No, he looked to ALPA -- the union APA left -- and APA entered into a service agreement to pay ALPA to provide professional negotiating and economics assistance. ALPA is, of course, a major AFL-CIO affiliate. ALPA’s former Director of Representation will supply this professional assistance which is legal and strategic advice in bargaining. We, of course, have an attorney in our negotiations providing the same services.



I respect Captain Bates and the APA. One thing he made clear is that he wants and needs closer working relations with ALPA and the AFL-CIO in order to succeed. He is right, but that part of APA’s program is not part of AMP’s.

In Solidarity
CIO

 

[TWU informer]

I find Captain Bates’ statement as interesting as you Pitbull. You have told us that AMP is modeled after APA, which you said requires professional negotiators. I pointed out last summer that APA was not using a professional negotiator, something which Captain Bates confirmed. He has determined that the APA’s approach to negotiations was unrealistic and unnecessarily confrontational over the past few years and that it needed professional negotiating assistance. Now, in seeking such assistance he did not look to the attorney on AMP’s website, which is not surprising since he and his firm were fired by APA nearly twenty years ago. No, he looked to ALPA -- the union APA left -- and APA entered into a service agreement to pay ALPA to provide professional negotiating and economics assistance. ALPA is, of course, a major AFL-CIO affiliate. ALPA’s former Director of Representation will supply this professional assistance which is legal and strategic advice in bargaining. We, of course, have an attorney in our negotiations providing the same services.



I respect Captain Bates and the APA. One thing he made clear is that he wants and needs closer working relations with ALPA and the AFL-CIO in order to succeed. He is right, but that part of APA’s program is not part of AMP’s.

In Solidarity
CIO

ROFLAMO

You are going to need some MOTION SICKNESS medication with all that SPIN you have going there.

Is this what they commonly call the TWU Liberal Merry-Go-Round spining at 50+ r.p.m?

The TWU has been affiliated with the AFL-CIO since the beginning of time and all we get from that is increased medical premiums to subsidize medical for someone not even a dependent of ours along with a t-shirt with a slogan, hockey tickets, and 25+ years of some form of a concession on every labor agreement negotiated, and don't forget the check to a high school band on Labor Day down in Henryetta Oklahoma. Next thing you know I will be subsidizing medical payments for same sex marriages and sex offenders, and will own a hockey team, basketball team, and thus we will call ourselves a strong and worthy labor union. HA HA HA

The AFL-CIO appointed elitist make how much per year?
They have what kind of retirement and medical?
And for what?
What exactly has that gotten us lately?
Couldn't stop Right-to-Work in Oklahoma and many other States.
Couldn't stop Overseas Repair of our work.
Couldn't stop NAFTA
Couldn't stop Outsourcing of millions of manufacturing jobs.
Couldn't stop the destruction of the Steel Industry.
Supporters of Illegal Immigrants and subsidizing their welfare.

But they do seem to take credit for getting Obama elected and a raise in minimum wage as if they really have some political influence, which had been proven a farce. And are also damn good at preventing any discipline and accountability, which in turns cost each of us. All the while we have been working under industry leading concession for about 8 years now. 2 hours pay per month that without Government Protection would be FIRED. I have been and witnessed first hand the AFL-CIO Drunkfest Conventions, I have seen the Cultist that believe everything said there and get all fired up by listening to fear mongering preaching.


WASTE OF FREAKING MONEY FROM MY PAYCHECK!!!!!!!!!

 

[Birdman]

This is better than any sitcom on tv. CIO does a drive-by, Informer catches him at the end of the block, disarms him and whacks him silly with his own weapon. After many moons, CIO drives by again and we repeat the process.

 

[odie01]

I move, that the twu refunds all dues paid, RETRO to May 2008!
It's our money, why not? Am I "OUT OF ORDER, BROTHER?"

 

[Imjustsayin]

Ok....are you going to be another management lackey that makes anti-union posts without any facts to support your position? Maybe all you have read is what American Airlines has posted on their negotiations website but no one knows what has transpired at the negotiations table over the last 3 years. In fact the only items made public by BOTH sides are those items which have been agreed upon. There was no movement at the last session because the company simply moved items around and has not come off their zero sum policy. The APFA has made is clear that zero sum will not fly and THAT is why there is a stalemate. Those are the facts dude...just sayin.

No "dude" those are not the "facts". You say "In fact the only items made public by BOTH sides are those items which have been agreed upon." I get the American Airlines notification when it updates its negotiations website. I found the Company's entire comprehensive proposal on there.

 

[jersey777]

No "dude" those are not the "facts". You say "In fact the only items made public by BOTH sides are those items which have been agreed upon." I get the American Airlines notification when it updates its negotiations website. I found the Company's entire comprehensive proposal on there.

My point exactly! You are looking at items agreed upon by BOTH sides such as reserve, seniority etc.... The APFA has also acknowledged these items as being settled. What you have not seen from BOTH sides are proposals on outstanding issues which are the meat and potatoes of any contract.....pay, medical, vacation, sick time, expense money. You are only getting one side of the story. You have no idea of what the APFA proposals are nor whether they have been willing to accept any concessions in exchanged for contract improvements. Yet, you wrongly point the finger at APFA in accusing them in your post that "the APFA is not moving."

Did you see the little notation after the link that stated that proposals "could change as the bargaining process continues."? This is the main reason why the APFA does not publish information about outstanding items.

 

[frontline]

This is certainly an interesting change of tone, and I think a good one. There was nothing but venom coming out of APA HQ for the years that Hil was in charge. Why would the company even want to negotiate with someone who just stonewalls and insults all the time? It sounds like Captain Bates will stand firm for his pilots but do so in a way that doesn't alienate everyone he comes into contact with.

 

[Mach85ER]

This is certainly an interesting change of tone, and I think a good one. There was nothing but venom coming out of APA HQ for the years that Hil was in charge. Why would the company even want to negotiate with someone who just stonewalls and insults all the time? It sounds like Captain Bates will stand firm for his pilots but do so in a way that doesn't alienate everyone he comes into contact with.

Gimme a break.

It's a corporation negotiating a billion dollar deal, not writing the script for a Teletubbies episode.

AA has offered the pilots nothing other than work overtime for straight 1:1 pay. I'm not sure they counter offered one single definitive point. APA says 50%, BFD, offer something in return even if it's some low-ball garbage and get down to business of negotiating. Same goes for insults. The current senior management has been as dismissive as possible with the pilots, especially with tolerating the VP of flight who they ignored replacing for years despite the total lack of respect from nearly every single pilot on the property, including the management pilots. Every single request by the pilots, no matter how low cost, has been responded with "how much are you going to pay for it?" But when APA returns the same level of respect, OMG, guys like Frontline are mortified at the pilot response.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Yeah, because the pilots' initial (and current?) bargaining position of a 50% raise and Superbowl Sunday as a holiday were so realistic.

 

[Mach85ER]

Yeah, because the pilots' initial (and current?) bargaining position of a 50% raise and Superbowl Sunday as a holiday were so realistic.

I agree the Super Bowl was a PR dud and was goofy.

As for the raise request, BFD. Are you the type to get miffed when a Auto Dealer tells you he wants MSRP +10% along with every other fee tacked on? Only the amateurs raise the "insult" card in negotiations. AA countered with nothing but stonewalling. Fine with me as long as 100% retro back to the expiration date of the previous contract.

By the way, maybe I should have told AA my new paycheck after 2003 was "unrealistic" since it was a 50% paycut along with working an additional month of flying over previous years. :blink:

 

[Imjustsayin]

I agree the Super Bowl was a PR dud and was goofy.

As for the raise request, BFD. Are you the type to get miffed when a Auto Dealer tells you he wants MSRP +10% along with every other fee tacked on? Only the amateurs raise the "insult" card in negotiations. AA countered with nothing but stonewalling. Fine with me as long as 100% retro back to the expiration date of the previous contract.

By the way, maybe I should have told AA my new paycheck after 2003 was "unrealistic" since it was a 50% paycut along with working an additional month of flying over previous years. :blink:

Ok everyone write this one down - "Only the amateurs raise the "insult" card in negotiations" - not sure this person has any experience or direct involvement in negotiations at AA, but that quote will be laughed at some day.

 

[chris perry]

Ok everyone write this one down - "Only the amateurs raise the "insult" card in negotiations" - not sure this person has any experience or direct involvement in negotiations at AA, but that quote will be laughed at some day.

I guess the 100,000 dollar bars the company handed out with the AIP checks wasnt an insult.Just happened to be in the range of pay we gave up.....Please insults are the management style here..... It has progressed 10 fold in last 8 years....Your absolutely right we are laughing. You cant even imagine this outfit could stoop so low.....

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree the Super Bowl was a PR dud and was goofy.

As for the raise request, BFD. Are you the type to get miffed when a Auto Dealer tells you he wants MSRP +10% along with every other fee tacked on? Only the amateurs raise the "insult" card in negotiations. AA countered with nothing but stonewalling. Fine with me as long as 100% retro back to the expiration date of the previous contract.

By the way, maybe I should have told AA my new paycheck after 2003 was "unrealistic" since it was a 50% paycut along with working an additional month of flying over previous years. :blink:

Its funny how people like FFCA will say that a 50% pay increase is unrealistic but 50% paycuts arent.

Lets look at some numbers.

Lets say you are earning $10/hr, and you take a 50% paycut. You would now be earning $5/hr. Is getting back to $10/hr unrealistic if you were once already at that point? NO. But if you only asked for a 50% increase on that $5/hr that would only bring you up to $7.50. In order to get back to where you were you would need a minimum of a 100% increase in pay, then you have to add in inflation.

The pilots demands for a 50% pay increase were fair. Why? Because they took a 25% paycut, if you take a 25% paycut to need a 34% increase to bring you back to where you were, add in 18% for inflation since 2002 and a little wiggle room at the table and the pilots still would not be up to what they were making pre-concession and they would still be working a lot more hours.