Consumer Reports raises concerns about outsourced airline maintenance

[WorldTraveler]

traveler/management,

"But my question to you (collectively) is what are you going to do to turn the ship around? And, when AA is overtaken by better run and more nimble competitors, are you all just going to chalk up the past how many years of your life to a bad experience, move onto what is next in your life, and live with the wounds that you have suffered?"

My question to YOU is:

In YOUR non-AMT, alias using position WHAT should AMTs do to "turn the ship around"? You are afraid to say it but you are implying concessions. THAT is not going to happen. So for comical relief spew forth your nonsensical advice for people who TRIED to "turn the ship around" but only to find our efforts go directly into the pockets of those steering the ship.

Come on, tell me HOW I can do my part to "turn the ship around"! Do you suggest I inspect/repair aircraft differently? What EXACTLY is your magic bullet for missing the iceberg management has us on a collision course with?

NO... I AM NOT IMPLYING or DIRECTLY STATING that concessions need to occur.
You are so afraid to admit that there might be some truth to what I might find to be the problem that you immediately jump to conclusions that I am not at all supporting.
The solution for AA's labor problems MUST BE improved productivity. Pay cuts are not necessary. You can't cut your pay enough to get AA productive enough to compete against its carriers and still have AA's infrastucture and legacy employee costs.
Problem is that people like Bob and other union leaders will never propose that solution because it will cost them money - you have to decide is your job and the future of AA more important than union demands to keep as many people on the payroll as possible while trying to argue that AA mgmt is out to lunch for asking for union relationships that will allow AA to effectively compete. Keep in mind that even AA mgmt's proposal - which I am not sure is enough but which they are willing to start with - does not involve pay cuts.... AA wants productivity.. and they must have it to turn the company around.
Then you as employees have to demand that AA mgmt be changed so that they make good on the opportunity they are provided; they screwed up once but haven't been too hurt by their failure even though the company is far worse off 8 years later.

Ok WT , last time I am going to explain this.
The quality of mro's work is less than AA's, I have seen it first hand and so has other amt's, you havnt, because your not an amt. You dont know what your talking about. Just because airplanes are not falling out of the sky does not mean their safe.
For AA to outsource their maintenance they are going to have to give up on quality and turn time.
AA maintenance package is more intence than other carriers , if they took their maintenance to a mro the cost would come up and so would the turn times, thats why they havnt done it. We do quality and speed.

I totally get the logic behind what you are saying... but if you understood the word "anecdote" you would know that the individual "sightings" that you and others come up with doesn't prove anything because you haven't and cannot scientifically or systematically look at the entire picture and in some type of analytical fashion tell me or anyone else that outsourced maintenance is less safe.
When you and Bob and others can do a complete analysis of all outsourced maintenance vs. in-house maintenance and come up w/ a statistical analysis of safety, then you can take your results to Consumer Reports and Congress too and you might get some traction.
As long as you and others continue to push the notion that outsourced maintenance is safe when all of your network carrier peers plus the whole low fare segment of the industry all use outsourced maintenance and seemingly manage to stay out of trouble w/ the FAA, don't have planes falling out of the sky, and don't have employees on internet forums telling how bad their maintenance is, then you have a mighty high hill to climb to convince the rest of the world that outsourced maintenance is not safe while AA's in-house maintenance is.
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When you come up w/ that evidence and not just your personal limited observations, let me, Consumer Reports, and Congress know.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"The solution for AA's labor problems MUST BE improved productivity. Pay cuts are not necessary."

Improved productivity will require reinstatement of the concessions that were LOANED to managment.

"you have to decide is your job and the future of AA more important than union demands to keep as many people on the payroll as possible while trying to argue that AA mgmt is out to lunch for asking for union relationships that will allow AA to effectively compete."

My craft's future is more important to me than the future of AA. I will NOT allow AA management with the twu's assistance to water down/erode my craft & profession simply so I may receive 30 pieces of silver. The long term goal is for my company to thrive and succeed but NOT at the expense of my SKILLED profession.

"union demands to keep as many people on the payroll as possible"

What jobs? You mean the THOUSANDS of jobs lost due to concessions? Do you actually read what you are told to type?

I know your identity now! You have to be jeff brundage!

 

[WorldTraveler]

as someone who has no connection whatsoever with AA other than having a brother who works for them I can assure you I am no member of AA mgmt.
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While I am delighted that you are passionate about your profession and willing to fight for a cause you believe in, I sure wish we could sit down (Bob can drop in too) so we could get to the bottom of the following question:
How do you think you or your profession is going to win if AA fails?
Seriously, what is your scenario that says that holding out until AA bleeds to death will help your profession?
Given that other carriers who already contract out maintenance will take AA's place, how is that a win for "your profession?"
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Those other carriers that contract out at least some of their maintenance are somehow managing to run safe airlines and generate financial results which provide some sense of stability to make it to the future.
While you can cite incidents you have seen regarding low quality contract maintenance, the same can be said about things that are done in-house including by AA. When you and others can SYSTEMATICALLY say that contract maintenance is LESS SAFE and back it up with more than a few isolated observations (which may very well be valid) and do a COMPARISON with the same type of work being done in-house, then you might win the argument.
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When you can convince me and others how organized labor and the aviation maintenance profession in the US wins if AA fails, then you can continue with your strategy with some certainty that you will win.
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Right now, you are simply on the path to being a martyr for a cause that no one else even sees as a cause and one for which you ultimately won't win anything.
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I would suggest you and others in organized labor instead figure out how to adapt to the reality that exists in aviation today and the even larger reality that if AA fails, so does your profession and you personally.
With those realities very firmly planted in front of you, the only logical path would be to do what has to be done to turn AA around, taking control of the part of the process (labor costs) over which you do have the ability to influence and then demand that people who can turn around the revenue side of AA be put in place to do the same thing there.
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Anyone sitting on the outside of your situation can see that; looking back at the wretched history of the US airline industry allows anyone to see this reality - it doesn't need to be anyone from AA mgmt.
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What is certain is that competitors are continuing their assault on AA's key markets while AA's costs continue to be at the top of the industry, leading to AA's certain failure... only the timing remains to be known.

 

[Mr Red]

Read my lips WE ARE THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL in pay and benefits !!!! WE could work for nothing and they would still LOOSE money.
If its time to go out of business so be it, I'll have a new job tomorrow.

 

[strikeforce]

When you can convince me and others how organized labor and the aviation maintenance profession in the US wins if AA fails, then you can continue with your strategy with some certainty that you will win.
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Right now, you are simply on the path to being a martyr for a cause that no one else even sees as a cause and one for which you ultimately won't win anything.
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I would suggest you and others in organized labor instead figure out how to adapt to the reality that exists in aviation today and the even larger reality that if AA fails, so does your profession and you personally.

World Traveler,

I guess you're missing the point here.......

Aircraft Maintenance, as a profession, has been watered down by these 3P hack shops, and the FAA. Our craft and class is a business, just like any other profession, such as pilots, lawyers, doctors, etc. American Airlines is also a business, and has done a very poor job of controlling costs. If AA's labor costs are higher than it's competitors then it needs to slash those costs, just like any other business, be it through furloughs or other means, and not necessarily through concessions. As an AMT, I have great responsibilities for the lives of the flying public, and responsibility to my family. I'm not in this business to continually diminish my buying power just because the executives of AA have failed in their fiduciary responsibilty to the shareholders. I don't mind working for less, but cut my everyday expenses, as well. I can't live in Chicago making $10 or $20 an hour. Plain and simple!
Now, AA can slash costs today, and be very competitive, but it will have to be through other means besides concessions. If my number comes up through layoffs, so be it. I will adapt. I have given this company my kid's college tuition, and the company squandered the money because they are reckless in managing their business. I can't afford to screw my family any more. If AA decides to go out of business, I can't stop that decision, whether I work for $40 an hour or $10 an hour. The reason they go out of business has nothing to do with my pay......it's because the managers of this company are not QUALIFIED in managing this business!
Doctors are not in the business of working for less if the hospital can't manage it's costs are they?

We all have a price for our services. CEO's have a price for their service. Why does my price have to go down, just so the CEO's can go up? My fellow AMT colleagues and I are not in the business of taking pay cuts everytime AA can't manage it's business.

As an employee, I expect management to do their job and run an efficient operation. Management expects me to do my job in an efficent manner, don't they? So, how can you expect me to accept additional pay cuts, if management can't keep their end of the bargain?

 

[FWAAA]

We all have a price for our services. CEO's have a price for their service. Why does my price have to go down, just so the CEO's can go up? My fellow AMT colleagues and I are not in the business of taking pay cuts everytime AA can't manage it's business.

Guess they're more effective negotiators than your union. You really should fire the worthless union and its ineffective negotiators and hire some negotiators who are able to convince the company to pay you fairliy. The UPS mechanics were able to convince their employer, as were the WN mechanics. Meanwhile, you (the AA AMTs) stay the course with the TWU and negotiators like Bob Owens; they have failed you for more than a quarter century yet you still haven't removed them as your representative.

Jamie Baker recently accused AA management of insanity because management wants to stay the course and see if the cornerstone strategy plus the ATIs with AA/BA and JAL deliver what they have promised. If anyone's demonstrating insanity, it's the thousands of AA AMTs who just keep sending the same worthless union to negotiate against the much more effective management.

 

[WorldTraveler]

World Traveler,

I guess you're missing the point here.......

Aircraft Maintenance, as a profession, has been watered down by these 3P hack shops, and the FAA. Our craft and class is a business, just like any other profession, such as pilots, lawyers, doctors, etc. American Airlines is also a business, and has done a very poor job of controlling costs. If AA's labor costs are higher than it's competitors then it needs to slash those costs, just like any other business, be it through furloughs or other means, and not necessarily through concessions. As an AMT, I have great responsibilities for the lives of the flying public, and responsibility to my family. I'm not in this business to continually diminish my buying power just because the executives of AA have failed in their fiduciary responsibilty to the shareholders. I don't mind working for less, but cut my everyday expenses, as well. I can't live in Chicago making $10 or $20 an hour. Plain and simple!
Now, AA can slash costs today, and be very competitive, but it will have to be through other means besides concessions. If my number comes up through layoffs, so be it. I will adapt. I have given this company my kid's college tuition, and the company squandered the money because they are reckless in managing their business. I can't afford to screw my family any more. If AA decides to go out of business, I can't stop that decision, whether I work for $40 an hour or $10 an hour. The reason they go out of business has nothing to do with my pay......it's because the managers of this company are not QUALIFIED in managing this business!
Doctors are not in the business of working for less if the hospital can't manage it's costs are they?

We all have a price for our services. CEO's have a price for their service. Why does my price have to go down, just so the CEO's can go up? My fellow AMT colleagues and I are not in the business of taking pay cuts everytime AA can't manage it's business.

As an employee, I expect management to do their job and run an efficient operation. Management expects me to do my job in an efficent manner, don't they? So, how can you expect me to accept additional pay cuts, if management can't keep their end of the bargain?

strike,
you might be surprised to know that I actually agree with everything you have written.
I have repeatedly said that I don't think you should take another cut in pay. What AA needs is to lay off a whole bunch of people - or better yet offer early retirements and leaves of absence since getting rid of senior people cuts costs a lot faster than laying off the most recently hired people.
If there are people who are convinced they could have a job tomorrow and aren't interested in turning AA around, then AA needs to do what they can to get them out of the company and find a core group of people who are willing to rebuild AA. AA needs a whole lot less people to operate the airline they have today and as AA continues to shrink, the number of needed people goes down even further.
Sadly, FWAAA is right. AA hasn't resorted to the "nuclear option" because they recognize it is more likely that there will be damage to the company by pushing things than if they just wait out labor. They were probably right for a number of years but I think w/ the DL and UA mergers and the fuel situation now, the calculations have changed.
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AA might try to just wait out the situation and get gradual increases in productivity but when they are throwing on debt every year while they wait the process out, you can't believe it is a long-term successful strategy.
AMR management is clearly taking the strategy to maintain status quo until they are no longer able to do so and then file for BK; problem is that since most of AA's debt is secured, there isn't a whole lot of reduction that will happen in BK. Further, AA's network will continue to shrink as competitors move into its key markets. All that AA has accomplished over the past several years is to shift capacity from NYC and ORD to MIA and DFW where it can better compete but that can only be done for so long esp. since low fare competition has moved into DFW and will continue to affect the market in the coming years as WN is free to fly from DAL. If/when the DL/US slot deal goes through, AA's ability to compete in NYC hits huge obstacles. When you compound that with UA's intentions to erode AA at ORD (they've already had alot of success on int'l flights) and the arrival of more and more low fare carriers (AA's promotions on ORD-LAX/SFO show that AA is feeling the presence of VX and UA's super aggressive response), the number of "safe" AA markets is looking smaller and smaller.
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Competitors aren't waiting any longer to go for the equivalent of AA's revenue jugular - which means the time for AA and its labor to act is getting shorter and shorter.
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How you and your peers decide to act remains in your hands, but what is certain is that the current course for AA will come to an end in the not too distant future. AA has been weakened, its employees demoralized, unions can't come up w/ a plan to end the stalemate, and competitors have lots of capacity they need to pull out of their systems which could easily be put into AA competitive markets - where by all measures, previous incursions by competitors have been pretty successful.
TO say that now is the time for AA and its labor to come to an agreement that ends the 8 year stalement is an understatement.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"How do you think you or your profession is going to win if AA fails?
Seriously, what is your scenario that says that holding out until AA bleeds to death will help your profession?
Given that other carriers who already contract out maintenance will take AA's place, how is that a win for "your profession?""

My profession will "win" when not if AA fails because we will not allow the prostitution of a skilled craft to go to the lowest bidder. Contrary to what you might think the world will not stop spinning when AA closes its doors. Aircraft will still require skilled AMTs that deserve to be paid according to our knowledge, skill & integrity. Meanwhile, the management team from AA will go where? Who will hire managers who can not manage successfully?

No, the scenario in place is management's hope that AMTs will tire of negotiations and just give in and accept more concessions for a few pennies. Not going to happen. When AA fails it will be because of AArpey, Reding and company NOT labor.

Other carriers already contract out maintenance? Okay, reread my first paragraph. As a person who will NOT sign off a log book where the work is not done correctly AND as a person who has invested years and money in becoming a skilled AMT it is my responsibility to PROMOTE AND PROTECT my craft.

"Right now, you are simply on the path to being a martyr for a cause that no one else even sees as a cause and one for which you ultimately won't win anything."

Martyr? I never used that word I did. The price of belonging to a union comes with a price. Even though my union doesn't represent my craft for nothing but my dues I still can make a difference. "No one else even sees as a cause" is exactly the problem my profession endures. Perhaps when AA fails my profession and labors position in the world today will take center stage.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Ken:

One has to understand the pro-business boys are no more than whores, all for sale to the highest bidder. It's only natural they would attempt to belittle someone like you that shows respect for their trade and principles as said principles only get in the way of their profits.

We, the Tradesmen, actually have something of value to exchange for our wages - our training and expertise in our respective trades - while the goblins in the Ivory Towers have much less to take any pride in.

A good example is the competitions of late between the different teams of AMTs - those skills weren't conferred by a piece of paper that basically is a third party's opinion re: one's willingness to play the game nor were they granted by schmoozing. They were learned BY DOING over time and not by sitting on one's ass in a classroom.

It's so basic - the "I stand for something" group against the "anything for a buck" mentality - the latter being the group that, in effect, sold their souls to the devil for a temporary profit.

 

[strikeforce]

Guess they're more effective negotiators than your union. You really should fire the worthless union and its ineffective negotiators and hire some negotiators who are able to convince the company to pay you fairliy. The UPS mechanics were able to convince their employer, as were the WN mechanics. Meanwhile, you (the AA AMTs) stay the course with the TWU and negotiators like Bob Owens; they have failed you for more than a quarter century yet you still haven't removed them as your representative.

It's easier said than done. Our negotiators are AMT's, Fleet Service Clerks, Auto shop mechanics, etc. , They are NOT qualified as negotiators! Period! Bob Owens argued that "who knows better than the person doing the job", well Bob, baseball players, entertainers, and other true professionals have "professionally trained" agents represent them when it comes to their pay, otherwise they would represent themselves because "who knows better" than the baseball player himself.

I wholeheartedly blame my union for the demise of the AMT! You can't honestly sit there and blame anybody, but the union.

However, when I say "union" I'm blaming leadership and membership. Leadership because they have failed to educate the membership to act like a union. The membership because most of US don't know the true meaning of "union". Compound that with leaderships failure to educate US to stick together in good times and BAD. I've always preached that a huge "Invisible" fence existed between management and labor. In most good labor organizations, you don't cross that fence. God help you if you did. The leaders mold their members into believing we're ONE big happy family, and WE take care of our OWN. The TWU is not a union. It's a business and it's leadership is self-serving, and not in the business of properly representing the people. I say this because the leaders DON'T listen to the people. The TWU, as an organization, serves too many occupations, and can't provide unlimited resources to ONE group. As a craft and class, WE need an organization that can provide unlimited resources to represent the Aircraft Mechanic, and we need one of our OWN at the top that has the same ideas, ambitions, and goals for the Aircraft Mechanics. AMFA was this union, and WE blew it when WE had the chance. Like I said before, I don't know if AMP is the answer, but I DO know one thing for sure.....We need to get rid of the TWU! I just can't explain why it's so hard to convince the other 9,999 mechanics.

 

[chris perry]

World Traveler,

The company had a core group of employee's (willing to do whatever it took to turn AA around) and they blew it.
We have all aged another yen years and are no better off,all the effort and sacrifice,no gain......The Union handed all the company wanted in 2003,as a matter of fact it was the wish list of prior contracts.... It wasn't some magical list of items of some special Harvard turn around plan.They simply pulled from prior contract demands.... the fact nothing has changed. There is no meaningful incentive to workers to make change,my last AIP was around 32 bucks. I can mow one yard for that in an hour. Its going to take a drastic change of management to turn this around. The moral of the story lay-off,buy out,or whatever if the company don't improve relations nothing will change.Right now they have a very large integrity problem...... SHARED SACRIFICE.....

 

[Mr Red]

It's easier said than done. Our negotiators are AMT's, Fleet Service Clerks, Auto shop mechanics, etc. , They are NOT qualified as negotiators! Period! Bob Owens argued that "who knows better than the person doing the job", well Bob, baseball players, entertainers, and other true professionals have "professionally trained" agents represent them when it comes to their pay, otherwise they would represent themselves because "who knows better" than the baseball player himself.

I wholeheartedly blame my union for the demise of the AMT! You can't honestly sit there and blame anybody, but the union.

However, when I say "union" I'm blaming leadership and membership. Leadership because they have failed to educate the membership to act like a union. The membership because most of US don't know the true meaning of "union". Compound that with leaderships failure to educate US to stick together in good times and BAD. I've always preached that a huge "Invisible" fence existed between management and labor. In most good labor organizations, you don't cross that fence. God help you if you did. The leaders mold their members into believing we're ONE big happy family, and WE take care of our OWN. The TWU is not a union. It's a business and it's leadership is self-serving, and not in the business of properly representing the people. I say this because the leaders DON'T listen to the people. The TWU, as an organization, serves too many occupations, and can't provide unlimited resources to ONE group. As a craft and class, WE need an organization that can provide unlimited resources to represent the Aircraft Mechanic, and we need one of our OWN at the top that has the same ideas, ambitions, and goals for the Aircraft Mechanics. AMFA was this union, and WE blew it when WE had the chance. Like I said before, I don't know if AMP is the answer, but I DO know one thing for sure.....We need to get rid of the TWU! I just can't explain why it's so hard to convince the other 9,999 mechanics.

9,998 I"M CONVINCED !

 

[strikeforce]

If anyone's demonstrating insanity, it's the thousands of AA AMTs who just keep sending the same worthless union to negotiate against the much more effective management.

You are absolutely RIGHT!!!!
Management just seems more effective because our so-called negotiators are "weak". It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that AA negotiators are just wasting time because they can, knowing full well our union will not push back, and it doesn't cost the company a dime for wasting time.
Quite frankly....I believe the union and company are colluding against the membership. Here's how....not only doesn't it cost the company a dime for wasting time, but it doesn't cost the union money either with the status quo. Therefore, they're both happy.

 

[strikeforce]

9,998 I"M CONVINCED !

Then educate your co-workers and let's get this thing Rockin & Rolling!!!!!!!

 

[Mr Red]

Then educate your co-workers and let's get this thing Rockin & Rolling!!!!!!!

We had a 90% card signing 6 months ago.