Company match for the Medical Prefunding any word yet when

[AANOTOK]

the Ed Koziatek letter was clear that in the event the plan is terminated that we get our money and the company contribution. These were individual accounts set up with JP morgan to protect them being taken away from us even in bankruptcy. How my individual account made it into court is beyond me. Unless it was allowed to be.........

"AA takes the position that the company’s various written “Benefit Guides” are the only documents that should be considered by the court to determine whether AA retained the unilateral right to modify or terminate retiree benefits and that those documents allegedly contain language that preserved AA’s right to modify or terminate such benefits. AA takes the position that the language of the Benefit Guides is so clear and unambiguous that the only reasonably conclusion that the court can make is that AA retained the right to unilaterally modify or terminate retiree benefits. It should be noted that during oral argument AA’s counsel indicated that the company intends to modify the retiree benefits not terminate them"

As soon as AA stated "modify" (ie stop funding) and not "terminate" (ie your match will cover the retirees medical till fund is dry) you lost your match.

 

[Bob Owens]

"AA takes the position that the company’s various written “Benefit Guides” are the only documents that should be considered by the court to determine whether AA retained the unilateral right to modify or terminate retiree benefits and that those documents allegedly contain language that preserved AA’s right to modify or terminate such benefits. AA takes the position that the language of the Benefit Guides is so clear and unambiguous that the only reasonably conclusion that the court can make is that AA retained the right to unilaterally modify or terminate retiree benefits. It should be noted that during oral argument AA’s counsel indicated that the company intends to modify the retiree benefits not terminate them"

As soon as AA stated "modify" (ie stop funding) and not "terminate" (ie your match will cover the retirees medical till fund is dry) you lost your match.

And that would be the end of the TWU at AA.

"Modify" could also mean terminate the fund and offer a plan sponsored by the company thats paid for 100% by the retiree.

 

[Realityck]

It was safe from BK when it was being sold to us while TWU gave away our free medical in 89. It was safe from BK in 2003 when TWU was giving away all our other benefits as well as pay to save their dues income and ,supposedly, the pension and retiree medical. In 2012 the TWU was no longer sure since it was time to give AA the pension and retiree medical that they didn't get in 2003. The short answer Chuck is the retiree medical was allowed to be brought into court by the TWU. It was allowed with a yes vote. If you remember correctly, the TWU told all the koolaid drinkers the match and interest would be returned after the 1114 hearing. Of course they couldn't tell you what a 1114 hearing was, but they assured the idiot yes voters they would get their money back. Get ready for the "You voted for it." response from the TWU officials.

In a bankruptcy, as a matter of procedure retiree benefit issues are addressed in the Court’s 1114 Hearings. In case you don’t know because you didn’t bother to check it out before you started pumping your AMFA rhetoric, the Retiree Committee consists of the TWU, APFA, APA, as well as the non-union & management Retiree Representatives. It has nothing to do with the contract vote and the judge hasn’t made any ruling yet. Neither has anyone on the Retiree Committee asked for any active employees’ company prefunding match.

The short answer Chuck is OldGuy@AA doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Also, if the Judge denies AA's request for a Summary Judgement and calls for a hearing, he would be the logical one to determine what terminate means, not AA with it's modify nonsense.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Didnt we give away vacation, sick time, holidays, doubletime, paid lunch, OT for training after shift and a few other things that our peers at other carriers who went through BK kept through BK in order to keep retiree medical and the pension? Now we lost that as well.

We are the lowest paid and have the least amount of benefits than any other airline mechanics in the industry. But don't worry. Not only do fleet service and stores have better benefits than we do, they are also paid above industry standard. This shows you who the TWU has been watching out for all this time. I'll say again. Where's our me too? It seems me too only goes for anyone other than AMTs. Longevity pay for fleet and stores. Full sick pay for fleet and stores. More vacation for stores. Skill pay for stores. Looks to me like stock clerks are the most important work group in the TWU. I guess without them the airplanes can't fly. TWU obviously thinks these other work groups deserve better bennies than AMTs. Not once have I heard from either of these groups of the travestly done to the AMTs. So much for unionism. Local 514 printed shirts that read "An injustice to one is an injustice to all." It should have said " An injustice to AMTs is OK." And I'm sure they wonder why we want to get rid of them. I'm really happy to see my retirement medical money go to the A scalers who voted in B scale, SRPs, no free medical and.......... prefunded retiree medical. The only AMTs the TWU ever cared about.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Transport Workers Union. Screwing AMTs since 1983.

 

[AANOTOK]

We are the lowest paid and have the least amount of benefits than any other airline mechanics in the industry. But don't worry. Not only do fleet service and stores have better benefits than we do, they are also paid above industry standard. This shows you who the TWU has been watching out for all this time. I'll say again. Where's our me too? It seems me too only goes for anyone other than AMTs. Longevity pay for fleet and stores. Full sick pay for fleet and stores. More vacation for stores. Skill pay for stores. Looks to me like stock clerks are the most important work group in the TWU. I guess without them the airplanes can't fly. TWU obviously thinks these other work groups deserve better bennies than AMTs. Not once have I heard from either of these groups of the travestly done to the AMTs. So much for unionism. Local 514 printed shirts that read "An injustice to one is an injustice to all." It should have said " An injustice to AMTs is OK." And I'm sure they wonder why we want to get rid of them. I'm really happy to see my retirement medical money go to the A scalers who voted in B scale, SRPs, no free medical and.......... prefunded retiree medical. The only AMTs the TWU ever cared about.

Screw you OldGuy, I'm sick and tired of you throwing Fleet under the bus. It's fine if you are bitching at the TWU if you feel they are representing us better than you. But stop the damn whining about Fleet not supporting AMT's or not complaining about your travesty. Where were you when they were outsourcing our cabin service, our Eagle drivers, our mail. OldGuy, shut the hell up!!

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Not only do fleet service and stores have better benefits than we do, they are also paid above industry standard.

No, we're not.Do some research before venting your spleen.WN, UAL and DAL all make more than we do, but it's nice to cling to the fallacy fleet service is the cause of your ills isn't it? AMT's have been yelling about that since '03, ask your negotiators why they stepped on their dicks whilst wearing golf shoes.

Better benefits? I'm paying $500 and change a month for bennies,if that's better than yours your negotiators flat out suck at their jobs.

I'll say again. Where's our me too? It seems me too only goes for anyone other than AMTs. Longevity pay for fleet and stores. Full sick pay for fleet and stores.

Dunno' what you're reading, the 'Me too' bit the dust with the MOU.Again, it appears your negotiators suck at their jobs.

Not once have I heard from either of these groups of the travestly done to the AMTs. So much for unionism.

Sorry, it's hard to get a word in edgewise around here, it's all AMFA all the time.Seems like anything not related to the eternal struggle of the noble AMT against the TWU isn't permitted.

 

[AANOTOK]

Sorry, it's hard to get a word in edgewise around here, it's all AMFA all the time.Seems like anything not related to the eternal struggle of the noble AMT against the TWU isn't permitted.

You need to be skilled to speak, and you my friend are unskilled!

 

[OldGuy@AA]

You obviously are one of the koolaid drinkers. I would guess you either were not employed at AA or weren't paying attention when: In 89 we were told , by Ed Kosiatek at the local 514 union hall that the prefunding was protected from BK. When 2003 came along, Jim Little claimed it was protected from BK at the Tulsa Convention Center special meeting where he went over the biggest sell out in aviation history. At the Tulsa base in 2012, in the CAM QWL room, John Hewett claimed they were now not sure the prefunding was protected from BK. They said we would get our money back after the 1114 process. When asked what the 1114 process was. Hewett and Tony Bunch said they weren't sure. Looks to me like I am not the only one who didn't know. Now. I was there at those three mentioned meetings and I also can call witnesses to verify what was said by whom and when. Maybe you are familiar with the laws of BK. Good for you. But don't try to make it look like the membership was not misled by the very people who are supposed to inform everyone with facts. Drink some more koolaid and to get your free popcorn at the 514 union hall. Say hi to your fleet service president if you can find him. He is not available too much these days. Say what you want about AMFA, but I can tell you that they have not lied to me yet. Can't say that about the TWU.

 

[AANOTOK]

You obviously are one of the koolaid drinkers. I would guess you either were not employed at AA or weren't paying attention when: In 89 we were told , by Ed Kosiatek at the local 514 union hall that the prefunding was protected from BK. When 2003 came along, Jim Little claimed it was protected from BK at the Tulsa Convention Center special meeting where he went over the biggest sell out in aviation history. At the Tulsa base in 2012, in the CAM QWL room, John Hewett claimed they were now not sure the prefunding was protected from BK. They said we would get our money back after the 1114 process. When asked what the 1114 process was. Hewett and Tony Bunch said they weren't sure. Looks to me like I am not the only one who didn't know. Now. I was there at those three mentioned meetings and I also can call witnesses to verify what was said by whom and when. Maybe you are familiar with the laws of BK. Good for you. But don't try to make it look like the membership was not misled by the very people who are supposed to inform everyone with facts. Drink some more koolaid and to get your free popcorn at the 514 union hall. Say hi to your fleet service president if you can find him. He is not available too much these days. Say what you want about AMFA, but I can tell you that they have not lied to me yet. Can't say that about the TWU.

Hey Oldguy, I work in Dallas, my Hall is the weak local 513 and I voted NO. And you call yourself skilled? Dude, just reading what you write, it is becoming more apparent why you guys keep getting screwed, and it ain't Fleet. By the way, I haven't drank any of their koolaid in my 30 yrs so go #### to someone else.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I was referring to realityck.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Hey Oldguy, I work in Dallas, my Hall is the weak local 513 and I voted NO. And you call yourself skilled? Dude, just reading what you write, it is becoming more apparent why you guys keep getting screwed, and it ain't Fleet. By the way, I haven't drank any of their koolaid in my 30 yrs so go #### to someone else.

It's not all fleet's fault but if you have been here 30 years then you remember when AMTs did pushbacks right? But that was outsourced to who? If you didn't answer fleet service then you are wrong. How many fleet jobs have been outsourced to AMTs? But the point is that the TWU does not respect the AMT profession and has consistantly made us the lowest paid work group in the industry. The ATD of the TWU was also dominated by fleet service for many years. This is why AMTs fought for and got separate negotiations. Fleet and Stores have never been the lowest in their peer group in my entire 27 year career at AA. TWU has not taken care of AMTs. In fact they made sure we took a bigger pay cut and lost more benefits in 2003. We have not been offered these benefits back. Benefits you never had taken away. Excuse me if I am bitter. But I guess you figure you deserve more benefits than any AMT and we should just shut up. If the term skilled offends you then I'm sorry. But I had to show an A&P license and at least 36 months of experience in aviation maint. before I was hired. What did you have to show? Like it or not, that makes me skilled. I sign for airworthiness every day, and I am responsible to the FAA for this work. This is a big responsibility. One you nor anyone in stores has. Also when is the last time you had to take a pi$$ test? When you got hired? I had to take three of them last year and I took three or four the year before. Is that ok with you too? Yeah. I am all for AMFA because they are concerned about saving the AMT profession. The TWU wants to destroy it. On one of the TAs that we voted down the TWU wanted to put the fleet service clerks in Tulsa to work in the hangars and down grade AMTs to OSMs. This would have resulted in licensed mechanics working as OSMs in the hangar side by side with fleet service clerks who made more money per hour than they did. Of course the OSMs would have been required to sign off anything they did while the fleet service clerks could not. Who's idea do you think that was? These are reasons we want out of the TWU. I do not blame you or any other fleet service clerk personally, except for the former FS who are international reps now and pushed for these things and also the one who is currently local 514 president. Denying benefits to one work group that all others enjoy shows that work group that they are not valued by the company they work for or the union that represents them. It makes them second class citizens. AA and TWU obviously respect your work group more than mine. That is not your fault, but it's not mine either. You can insult me if you want. That doesn't change anything. I know the facts as well as most of the other posters on this blog. If you consider AMTs and Fleet as the same skill level then you are mistaken. I would also challenge you to find another airline where the AMTs have inferior benefits than Fleet. You won't find one. Until this is corrected you will have to listen to it and it doesn't look like it will ever be corrected by the TWU. I could go on about other slights such as longevity pay but I have written enough. Thanks for your support by the way (sarcasm).

 

[Bob Owens]

Screw you OldGuy, I'm sick and tired of you throwing Fleet under the bus. It's fine if you are bitching at the TWU if you feel they are representing us better than you. But stop the damn whining about Fleet not supporting AMT's or not complaining about your travesty. Where were you when they were outsourcing our cabin service, our Eagle drivers, our mail. OldGuy, shut the hell up!!

Where was Fleet when the TWU said its ok for other carriers to bring in their own maintenance as long as fleet loaded and unloaded them?

The real question is where was our Union?

What AA wants AA gets, we should not be turning on each other, we should hold our Union accountable. While I don't agree with oldguy on that post he brings up valid points but blames the wrong people. Other groups have been better served, not necessarily well served, but better served than us. Sure you may not be the top but the gap between where you are and the top is much narrower, and the gap between you and the absolute bottom is much wider. The top paid mechanics get $54, plus much better benefits and workrules, we get $20/hr less. Southwest gets $45 an hour and UAL and Delta get $38. I know thats a lot more than you guys get and expecting sympathy is s stretch because even at $34/hr its still a lot more than a FSC gets but it is fair for mechanics to compare themselves to mechanics even if its unfair to blame FSC for the disparity. How big is the gap between you and Southwest? Between you and UAL? My guess is that its nowhere near what the gap is between us and our peers. Oldguy was wrong to go after Fleet, there is no doubt that you have suffered and seen a greater decline than we have, but your story is not much different than your peers at Delta and United, you are all in the same boat, we aren't in the same boat as our peers, we are much worse off and I do not blame you guys at all, as I said in another post our nemesis is within our own class and craft, sadly, its mechanics, Bobby Gless and Don Videtich who are leading the attack upon our profession, and they are both A&Ps, maybe a new structure can fix it, 591 will only make it worse. It truly seems as though the ATD is determined to leave us no alternative but to leave.

 

[Bob Owens]

In a bankruptcy, as a matter of procedure retiree benefit issues are addressed in the Court’s 1114 Hearings. In case you don’t know because you didn’t bother to check it out before you started pumping your AMFA rhetoric, the Retiree Committee consists of the TWU, APFA, APA, as well as the non-union & management Retiree Representatives. It has nothing to do with the contract vote and the judge hasn’t made any ruling yet. Neither has anyone on the Retiree Committee asked for any active employees’ company prefunding match.

The short answer Chuck is OldGuy@AA doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Also, if the Judge denies AA's request for a Summary Judgement and calls for a hearing, he would be the logical one to determine what terminate means, not AA with it's modify nonsense.

And who from the TWU sits on the 1114 committee?

Where we went wrong was agreeing to allow the 1114 process to determine where our money ends up. Will it end up going back to us or will it be used to continue to provide benefits for the retirees? No retiree group ever won the right to keep their health benefits in BK, even outside of BK retirees have not been very successful in keeping company paid medical benefits once the company decides to terminate or "modify" them. Ellen Shultz wrote a good book called "Retirement Heist" a couple of years ago about that. She mentions how retirees sued their employer after the employer "modified" their free lifetime retiree medical to one they had to pay through the nose for. The company argued that "lifetime" didn't mean "at no cost", and the court ruled in favor of the company.

What people lose site of is that Prefunding and Retiree medical are two separate parts of a package. It should have been kept that way. The company always had the right to back out of prefunding, but not retiree medical. It says so in the prefunding document. In the event the company backed out participants were entitled to their contributions and the match, if the participant backed out they were only entitled to their contributions. there was no need to tie our prefunding agreement to the 1114 process.

When we retire our contributions to the prefunding plan stops, we are entitled to medical coverage for life from American Airlines. Thats between AA and the retirees. According to the prefunding document all the match reverts to the company as soon as they sign up for retiree medical, the employee part is drawn down over 10 years. So if the company decided to cancel retiree medical some retirees would be entitled to a portion of their contributions but none of the match because the match was already used to provide coverage. Should the court rule in favor of the Retirees where do you think the money will come from to continue to provide them benefits? The retirees have a good argument, they aren't asking for free medical, they are asking for Medical they already paid for. The question is whether or not the company can shed that liability in BK. My guess is yes they can. But wouldnt that make retirees creditors entitled to some share of the equity?

Ed Koziatek has already made his view clear, that our money from the company would be used to continue to pay his medical bills, but thats not supported by the language in the prefunding document, but then again nobody is there to argue our side either. So there is nothing stopping them from striking a deal to use our money that remains in the fund from providing benefits to retirees until the fund runs out of money. AA is able to get out of retiree medical and it doesn't cost them a penny, the retirees don't become creditors but we lose thousands of dollars.

I hope it doesn't happen, but it could and if it does you can thank the people who wrote it and the people who voted YEs for it.

 

[Bob Owens]

I sign for airworthiness every day, and I am responsible to the FAA for this work. This is a big responsibility. One you nor anyone in stores has. I do not blame you or any other fleet service clerk personally, except for the former FS who are international reps now and pushed for these things and also the one who is currently local 514 president.

Actually Stores does sign for what they do and can be held legally responsible by the DOT. Valuejet drove changes that added responsibilities and liabilities to Stock Clerks.

Look, our fight isnt with Fleet, Stores or any other poorly paid , poorly represented worker, our fight is with the people who bring this crap back and sell it to our fellow mechanics. Keep in mind that every concession we accepted was voted in by other mechanics. How does fighting with Fleet or Stores change that? They (Fleet Presidents) may get to vote on what gets brought back, which is wrong, but they do not get to vote for ratification. I'm as fustrated as you are but you need to stay focused.