Branson wants to try and sway Dallas for DAL gates

[WorldTraveler]

and as I have noted multiple times I expect the pressure to come on UA. And WN will not be getting any more space as long as there are carriers who want to serve the airport.

and there are many airports in the world - perhaps not in the US - that operate mainline size aircraft 320/737s - at more than 10 flights/gate.


In the end, I still expect DL and Virgin to be at DAL and WN eventually to end up being at DFW in addition to DAL.

It will take time to get it all worked out but DAL will be pushed to the max - and that is what the City wants.

 

[WNMECH]

and as I have noted multiple times I expect the pressure to come on UA. And WN will not be getting any more space as long as there are carriers who want to serve the airport.

and there are many airports in the world - perhaps not in the US - that operate mainline size aircraft 320/737s - at more than 10 flights/gate.


In the end, I still expect DL and Virgin to be at DAL and WN eventually to end up being at DFW in addition to DAL.

It will take time to get it all worked out but DAL will be pushed to the max - and that is what the City wants.

You must know that DAL has noise restriction flight curfews to accommodate local airport residents that many of the worlds airports do not.

 

[WorldTraveler]

sure do... so do many cities in the world. Flight ops are permitted far more than for 10 hours per day. WN doesn't have one plus hour turn times... and they could still take one gate out of service and push the remaining to less than a flight/hour 15 and easily be over 200 flights/day.

No airline at DAL will be allowed to sit on gates.

 

[eolesen]

And a screwup on the part of DAL that tries to lock up or lockout the market for one or two carriers as the DOJ thought they could do will indeed create national uproar.

There are 100x more people outraged over the DOJ's role in the IRS scandal and Fast & Furious.

None of that outrage has resulted in anything substantial taking place.

With all the other things going on in the country, I suspect people won't care about two gates and 20 flights at the 45th busiest airport in the country (put in perspective, that's barely larger than MKE and PIT).
 

The DOJ acknowledges that that City manager has the role of approving or NOT approving this lease.
that is why they sent this letter to the city manager ASKING him to help them settle their case on the merger, by approving who THEY think is the best candidate.

 
You need to stop thinking in black & white terms, and start reading between the lines.

The DOJ's letter is making it clear the DOJ sees no grounds on which the City could reasonably withhold approving the sublease.
 

You must know that DAL has noise restriction flight curfews to accommodate local airport residents that many of the worlds airports do not.

If it increases beyond what's expected, I'd expect those neighborhood groups will be pushing for slots like SNA and LGB have, which are entirely legal for the purposes of noise abatement.

 

[WNMECH]

The DAL Impact Analysis in 2006, projected an average of 10.4 turns per gate with a total of 416 aircraft operations for the airport with 20 gates.
 
Lessees will not be challenged for "sitting on gates" if they use these gates at that level.

 

[WNMECH]

There are 100x more people outraged over the DOJ's role in the IRS scandal and Fast & Furious.

None of that outrage has resulted in anything substantial taking place.

With all the other things going on in the country, I suspect people won't care about two gates and 20 flights at the 45th busiest airport in the country (put in perspective, that's barely larger than MKE and PIT).
 
 
You need to stop thinking in black & white terms, and start reading between the lines.

The DOJ's letter is making it clear the DOJ sees no grounds on which the City could reasonably withhold approving the sublease.
 

If it increases beyond what's expected, I'd expect those neighborhood groups will be pushing for slots like SNA and LGB have, which are entirely legal for the purposes of noise abatement.

Yeah, but I was just showing where the Dallas City Manager arguably has an important role in this and he can reject this lease agreement if he wants to take on the lawsuits, refuting that he has NO role.
 
The noise issue has been settled in the five party agreement with a curfew between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. and by limiting Love to 20 gates, any attempt to change this will threaten the whole agreement.
 
http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/dal_ResolveWrightAmendment.pdf

 

[eolesen]

I know the history, but that's taught me not to pretend that any issue regarding DAL is ever truly settled...

 

[WNMECH]

I know the history, but that's taught me not to pretend that any issue regarding DAL is ever truly settled...

True, but getting Love Field slot controlled is really going out on a limb don't cha think?
And for noise control issues after they already have a plan that was negotiated with input from the nimby groups?
Pretty far out there.

 

[robbedagain]

How many flights does ua have there. And is it all erjs or crjs

 

[WorldTraveler]

And just because this same DOJ has screwed up on a million other things doesn't mean that anyone is going to just sweep one more thing under the rug.

If the plan was for gate usage to be 10.4 flights/day, then how is it acceptable for WN to have only 10 flights a day.

Who are we going to let in to raise the average while WN operates below the average?

 

[WNMECH]

And just because this same DOJ has screwed up on a million other things doesn't mean that anyone is going to just sweep one more thing under the rug.

If the plan was for gate usage to be 10.4 flights/day, then how is it acceptable for WN to have only 10 flights a day.

Who are we going to let in to raise the average while WN operates below the average?

I am not sure what you are saying.
 
I said that I read on one of these reports about Love, that the city considers 10 flights a day as full utilization and that the DAL Impact Analysis in 2006, projected an average of 10.4 turns per gate with a total of 416 aircraft operations
I never said WN would only fly 160 flights a day.
And I can guarantee that WN will fly a higher average per gate than any other carrier there and their 16 gates will be fully utilized by WN.

 

[eolesen]

True, but getting Love Field slot controlled is really going out on a limb don't cha think?

Not really. The city would need to pass a noise control ordinance as SNA and LGB have done -- they worked with the surrounding community to come up with an acceptable level of noise, and worked out how many flights they could operate within the agreed upon noise budget. As airplanes got quieter, they added slots at SNA. LGB has held firm on the slots available because they want to preserve the peace & quiet around the airport.

I'd suggested this back in 2006 when the whole "Wright is Wrong" argument first came up. Capping gates in compromise should in theory cap the noise, but once planes are flying over peoples' houses, the impact and discussion are no longer theoretical.

If the noise is substantial, the NIMBY's will act. Who knows... maybe WN will champion the effort as a good corporate citizen. Certainly, it would limit their exposure to competition...

 

[WorldTraveler]

And it is precisely why WN will not be allowed to soak up virtually all of the usable capacity at DAL and then have the community argue that they want a less busy airport.

I am not sure it would ever happen that DAL could succeed at capping capacity to begin with but DAL is a far larger market than probably any other secondary airport.

It will be kept available to any and all and WN will have to learn to compete with other carriers something it has tried to avoid olver and over and over again

 

[WNMECH]

WN will still operate from the 16 gates they won in the deal to lift Wright.
While other carriers without preferential gate leases at love will have to scramble for the scraps or move on.

 

[WorldTraveler]

sorry but that is NOT the way the 2006 agreement is written.

DAL specifically says that new entrants will be accommodated first on the process of who volunteers and if that doesn't work then by assignment of flights by DAL.

There are no EXCLUSIVE gates. Preferential does not mean exclusive.

If WN's expectations were that they would dominate 80% of DAL, they shouldn't have signed the 2006 agreement. That is not what it promised.

Again, WN will constantly be facing new carriers coming to DAL based on the very success that WN wants to have.

I predict they will soon plead to have the 2006 agreements revised so they can go to DFW; AA will not be able to do the same in return. Advantage WN.

DL will be also be at both airports.